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Hi,

I've lurked here for a while and I had this thought about the game since 1ed that's bothered me to no end. The idea that all magic items are predetermined and "meant to be" like the One Ring and Bilbo. I come from playing Old school systems ( AD&D) and I do remember magic items coming in two distinct categories. I'm pretty sure items like the One Ring were a major reason. So, these items were called artifacts and you were not supposed to just willy nilly randomly drop them into your campaign.

Artifacts were too influential and could lead to a situation were the GM couldn't handle the stress on his/her game that it would cause. But I think it's a big mistake to treat all magic items this way.

1. First of all, I think that Manwe ( or Eru) doesn't have complete control over the world. So, fate (Eru?) would bump the pinball machine in your favor, but only in very special, vague circumstances. When Gollum drops the ring, Bilbo finds it. But, did Eru also make sure Smeagol murdered Deagol to keep it out of Sauron's hands?

2. The Powers in Middle Earth only interfere when they feel there's an imbalance (I mean power imbalance). Like Sauron being a Maia and pouring all his Spirit into the One Ring is a little unfair for the rest of Middle Earth peoples, they ( the Valar) intervene when given a chance. But even then it's in a minimalist way. They don't have much power in the Middle Earth and must abide by it's wyrd so to speak. They intervene at their own peril? Maybe if the Valar interfere too much, Morgoth gets to come back?

3. Other "normal" magic items seem to be random and haphazard. Orcrist and Glamdring seem to be quite random and so does Sting. It's just pure luck. Did Bilbo tell his GM before the Quest, hey I think a nice dagger of westernesse make that glows when Orcs are near would be really cool. When we get to a hoard, make sure to include it. Think of how boring that sounds! Tolkien never makes a big deal of those items being found or meant to be or whatever.

4. All real magic items should be under the purview of the GM and PH's should have zero input into what they find. They should be mysterious and surprising . AS a player, I've never given a list or wanted list regarding magic items. I don't care if I find the perfect item for my character or not. I want it to feel like an adventure not a predetermined script. All magic items should "fit" a certain PH! Come on man, even typing that makes me cringe. magic from a bygone era should be alien, mysterious, deadly, dangerous. wonderful, and never fully known. Only the GM should know exactly what it is and what properties it has. It's so lazy to spend a Valour point to unlock a quality! The PH should have to earn it in the field, like you know, using it!

Do any GM's here treat Magic Items different than RAW?

[1] That's a very deep theological discussion, people have been arguing about that for thousands of years (obviously not in the context LotR, but the same principles of how much control gods have over your life). The idea that all the events in your life are orchestrated by God for your good is very much compatible with Christian theology, which influenced Tolkien's writing. In short, I don't think is incompatible with his world. You're free to have your interpretations otherwise, of course. But I don't think the "rare and only slight nudges" view is mandatory.

[2] The Valar don't interfere in Middle-Earth direct not because they're afraid that it will somehow summon Morgoth, but because they're afraid of Beleriand 2.0.

[3] You've interpreted this as random and haphazard. I don't. I don't think Gandalf and/or Bilbo prayed to Eru and had a weapon drop - but Eru knew that they'd have need of those weapons and so orchestrated for them to arrive in their hands. Rather like Eru orchestrated for Sméagol to arrive to help Frodo and Sam, then to fall into the fire of Mount Doom with the Ring, thereby achieving the unachievable.

[4] I don't let players have much input on their items. They'll just be on an adventure one day, travelling through some ruins...and wow, there's an awesome sword! I'm not clear on what you're proposing to replace the Valour system, though?

(Not bothering about other worlds, just Middle-earth as I read it.)

1A. The Music of Creation was absolutely controlled and guided by Eru. Yes, one of the musicians got rowdy and played off page (darn "jazz" influence I say): but since the composer was also the conductor, Eru incorporated the "off-piste" notes into the main melody successfully each time. Before the variation became a Discord, the twisting in the Music was halted and reset by Eru. ["Have you tried switching it off and switching it on again?"] In the end, the only notes permitted to be continued were under Eru's control. So he never lost it.
Manwe, however? Isn't he just a significant musician in the orchestra? So he doesn't get to decide what to play, he just knows the notes. Melkor? He's playing 'all the right notes, just not necessarily in the right order' - I don't even see him as having his own original creation; he simply can't turn the pages on his musical scoresheet properly.
It's all Eru, all the way, all the time. [This is my take on Tolkiens story of Creation btw]

1B. Why Smeagol? Well, a fisher-hobbit picked up the One Ring. If he had NOT been murdered by his cousin/friend, then Deagol would have been corrupted into Gollum. i.e.
it is the same result, just an anecdotal variation of the theme. This is how Eru does control the Music.

2. The Valar are just session musicians at best. They tend to stick to the script. Just like teachers rarely (if ever) go "off curriculum", these players don't attempt to compose or recompose. They are scared of the imagined "consequences", or of being "told off".

3. And 4. These deserve a separate response because they are to do with the game design rather than how I imagine Tolkiens magic.

Magic items in Middle-earth and in TOR.

3. Magic items in Middle-earth are hardly random and haphazard. The examples of Orcrist and Glamdring both come with their own extensive backstory. They have such a history that goblins remember them even two Ages later. Tolkien never even mentions how these swords would have been used by other heroes after the fall of Gondolin (great adventure hook for those who like playing out of the 3rd Age?) Every gift from Galadriel is used - even Pippins blade gets a mention in the Scouring chapter - although Anduril's Scabbard is a bit passive. And of course these gifts are not random (I sometimes sort of wish they were) . Tolkien seems very much in mind of "Chekovs Gun".
There is little random chance about finding the swords either: Gandalf had ridden ahead and spoken with some of Elrond's people; so he knew the trolls were around. (He may well have also learned from these people that important or valued Elven goods had been lost recently to these troll bandits.) He also knew that the trolls had to have a den; and Thorins Expedition diverted their attention to look for it, when it would have made more sense to get to Rivendell asap. Tolkien does not mention what treasures the other dwarves may have picked up btw. Since he had no plot device for them, maybe he didn't mention them?

4. In this I think that TOR get the distribution and frequency of magic items quite right. TOR is a cooperative game, players and LM work together a lot more than my impression of D n D. The LM should absolutely check out the Players view of how they would like their PC to develop: and - just like Galadriel is a de facto LM handing out rewards to assist the Fellowship.
TOR itself implies a limit of a few items each and each item has a limited selection of possibilities, because magic is not outrageous in Tolkiens world.

Hey, Thanks for the responses, I'll reply in a general sense to what I think you guys are implying.

First of all, I guess discussing Euthyphro's dilemma will get us nowhere so lets move on from that!

1. I think Tolkien's relationship with his Middle Earth writings kind of changed over his lifetime. For instance, Orcs are inherently Evil and have zero chance for redemption, but later on in his Letters he's uncomfortable with this and wants to have a path even for Orcs to find salvation. His Catholicism kind of starts to infuse into his works more, or at least he would've if he was able to.
So, at first, there were some Catholic hints in the Hobbit, but they were "accidental" in nature. I think he was trying to re-tell Beowulf with an purely English sentiment devoid of Continental influence and even "Christian"? I've read that he thought much of Beowulf was Christianized, which I think he meant wasn't a good thing because we can't get a genuine snap-shot of this ancient culture. Tolkien seemed to be enthralled by these people and their true culture. Maybe he was also trying to find the "true" values were actually a Noble Northern spirit ready to be Christianized. I don't know it's hard to discern because Tolkien definitely changes as he ages.
So, you don't see any of this "meant to find" narrative about Bilbo's ring. Actually in the first edition of the Hobbit, it's technically just a magic ring at that point and not the One Ring. So, even with the one ring, he was only meant to find it after a severe ret-con!

2. Tolkien was very concerned with his work not being like Narnia, which he detested, because it was so allegorical and basically a polemic for Christianity. Tolkien wanted his story to be taken at face value and live on as a sub-creation with it's own internal rules and laws. Of course as he got older, he wanted to reflect more and more his Catholic faith. (which I think would've ruined LoTR's!) To me, what make LoTR's cool, is its internal consistency. The powers want to intervene but only do at key moments and as time moves on, seem to have less and less say in the world. ( kind of like our real world?) It is the time of the mortals and the last chance for the powers to intervene in any meaningful way. A true battle of good vs evil.

3. With Tolkien's insistence of imbuing more of the Catholic viewpoint into his works, it runs the risk of losing its original conceit and charm. An ancient time when Good and Evil faced off, like in the Pagan works by Anglo-Saxons, Beowulf. This myth is extremely powerful because it seems they are telling the same story the Catholics are trying to say. A corrupted world, "fallen" heroes, Sin personified -- the Dragon. These myths can maybe explain truths in a more powerful meaningful way than other means. I personally feel that Tolkien was "infected" with Pagan views and values, so much so, that originally it was hard for him to put the Catholic parts back in, it kind of ruined his myth. To me Middle Earth is not like the real world, which is it's so cool. The fantasy is that the powers do not have complete control over things, which is why we are in the spot we are in. Almost Deist in a way. I think if you read Tolkiens works chronologically, you'll find they become less pagan as he grows older. Maybe he was more aware of what he was writing by that point? Read Lost Tales and see how Valinor is described. It's a lot different from the stuff later found in the Silmarillion.

4. Back to the issue at hand! The swords Gandalf found were there because Arthedain had countless battles with the Witch King right? Eru didn't create these battles so that the burial mounds would be close by for Gandalf to find his swords. If a PC wanted to find old magic blades made by the Elves or Numenorians, where do you think they should look. The Shire cemetery or the Barrow Downs burial mounds? Finding an ancient weapon in the South Downs or whatever is lucky and predictable but not divine intervention. I think that interpretation ( that PC's are meant to find magical weapons to help on their quest)goes too far, even for a Tolkien purist. The only magic artifact that was meant to be found in that special way is the One Ring, and even that was retconned after the fact. Sometimes, Bilbo got lucky, by finding the ring that made it possible for him to escape from Gollum, but at other times he made his own luck, as by Sting, which he named. It was a powerful weapon only because he made it so because of his courage. It was just a random well made sword with some magical enhancement. There is literally nothing special about this sword, besides being magical.

I think I'm not making my argument clear enough, I'll try to rethink later and see if I can express myself in a clearer way. Also, I can't wait to run this game soon!

Thanks for your responses!