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Dizzyfugu
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"Await action" during combat

Tue 14 Nov 2023, 10:13

In another forum the discussion about a solution for an "Await action" option during combat came up. Officially there's no rule for that (e.g. "I have my bow ready and wait that a Rust Brother comes round the corer to shoot."). How do you handle this?
Do you simply allow PCs to delay their planned actions until latet that round? Or maybe create a rule on your own, like "Specify a condition, forfeit a Fast action, and reduce your initiative in that round until the specified condition occurs. If the condition isn't met, you lose your turn."
Things become even more complicated when special effects like Free actions through Professional Talents after all other actions have been spent. As a resut, a delayed action might either de-valuate these, or allow players to act even twice later in the round, and complicate things?
I know the Reforged Power supplement offers a rule module for deleayed actions for early turn orders, but, while plausible, it can easily escalate and become very complicated to look through, esp. in bigger combat groups.
 
JohanR
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Re: "Await action" during combat

Tue 14 Nov 2023, 11:54

This does not answer your question, but I should perhaps make the "Alternative initiative" module read simpler in Reforged Power.

Perhaps:
  • If you do not want to take your turn you can delay, but keep your drawn initiative.
  • After anyone takes their turn (i.e. does not delay) those that previously delayed can choose to take their actions. If two wants to go at the same time, the one with higher initiative chooses order.
  • When only delayed actions remain, all those that remain are forced to take their actions in opposite order, so last highest initiative has to go first.
(if used, it is important as a GM to also use this for NPCs. I.e. they will not spend their actions running up to PCs, rather delay, use the delay to run up and act first in the new round - avoiding the awkward "the first one to run in dies, so skip round is the best action" action)

This has pros/cons to just adding an overwatch action, but it solves a similar problem.
An overwatch is more important in modern game, where you can state that you threaten the target "to stop and give up" and as a delay state "if he goes for his gun, or moves I will shoot" (interrupting the initiative if the target does this, but makes you loose you action if they do not).
If you delay your action, you have more control and can better adapt, but are forced to watch the target perform all their actions, like "he draws his gun and shoots you", now it is your turn, oh, you are dead, too bad.
It is less likely that you stand with a bow fully drawn on a target in medieval times (simply because if you draw, you want to shoot, it is exhausting to hold it fully drawn), and that your opponent could draw his sword and attack you before you could strike them with your already drawn sword is also more plausible, as they could have just taken a step backwards or so while drawing their sword?

A final edit: Adding an overwatch action if a less intrusive change though, so I should perhaps just add such an action in Reforged Power instead. But an overwatch on the other hand dosn't solve the "the first one to run in dies, so skip round is the best action".. hmm. I still think overwatch fits better in modern games and delay in medieval games.
 
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Dizzyfugu
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Re: "Await action" during combat

Tue 14 Nov 2023, 12:40

Hello Johan,
thank yopu for your quick respone. I am aware of the initiative order option module from Reforged Power, I forgot to mention that. It's cool and keeps the original initiative order intact, and I like that, even though the procedure can become confusing when there are many combatants. As an alternative, the "Delay action" idea for a Fast Action came up, to simplify things - even though the interference with Free actions is uncertain. A solution might be to exclude the use of Free actions (e .g. unlimited parry/dodge) if you want to delay something else - after all, the focus would be elsewhere? And to use a Free action you either have to spend a Fast action to activate it (e .g. Fast Footwork 3), or you would have to pay with WP for a Professional Talent's Free action, which would be on top and after anything else, anyway. Normally you should IMHO not be able to to anything else than that what you want to delay for the rest of the round - but that could be a valuable tactical addition to the game/combat system.

Independently, the "reactive movement" issue you mention came up at my game table recently. We found out that we'd have to better respect the need to spend (Fast) actions to move closer to a target at Arm's Length to make a strike (Slow action). We had several times the case that lightly-armored targets that rely on Dodging became very quickly victims to melee attacks, until we realized that closing in takes more time than we had played out, and this "extra time" would potentially open a defense window to Retreat or Flee before a strike can be made, what markedly raises chances for survival! With a delayed Movement action one could announce that "I retreat when the guys with swords close in", which would cost in total 2 Fast actions (one for the delay, one for the movement as such). Other Talents could interfere here, though, I feel that there need to be restrictions.
Last edited by Dizzyfugu on Wed 15 Nov 2023, 13:17, edited 1 time in total.
 
JohanR
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Re: "Await action" during combat

Tue 14 Nov 2023, 17:51

Ah, yes I see. Overwatch actions are not simple either though.

The options you need to solve would be:
  1. Does it cost a fast action just to state that you delay an action? I.e. does delaying normally cost you both actions, to perform 1 delayed action.
    • Example: I'll spend my fast action to declare my trigger action. When it trigger I can spend my other actions as reactions.
  2. What actions can you delay towards? Only movement? Or any actions? How specific do you need to state the trigger action?
    • Example: "If he moves closer, I'll react". GM: "Unfortunately, he draws his bow and shoots you, you lose your delayed action as it didn't trigger".
  3. Do you need to state what you are about to do on your delayed action now, or only the trigger action?
    • Example: "If he moves closer, I'll react". GM: "No, too vague". Player: "If he moves closer, I'll move backwards". GM: "Ok".
  4. Are you allowed to cancel your stated reaction?
    • Example: "I'll shoot the first one that enters the door". GM: "To your surprise, it is the barmaid, and not the thugs you though that comes running in through the door. Make a roll to hit, it is unfortunately not optional".
  5. Are you hindered from taking any other actions, like fast or free reactions, while focusing on your delayed action?
    • Example: "I'll shoot the first one that enters the door". GM: "Before they enter they shoot you with an arrow, because of your focus, you are unable to dodge".
  6. If the above is true, are you allowed to terminate your delayed action to take other reactive actions?
    • Example: "Dang, ok, I'll dodge instead, forgoing my delayed trigger".
  7. Can the concentration be broken by damage? Then probably ignored by the Pain resistant talent?
    • Example: GM: "Since the arrow dealt 2 Strength damage to you, you unfortunately lost your delayed action due to the pain".
  8. Does the delayed action take place before, during or after the triggering action?
    • Example: Before: "He is about to swing his sword, triggering your reaction". Player: "I'll roll move to retreat away a zone! Shouting NA-NA-NAA-NA-NAAA-NA!"
    • Example: During: "He is about to swing his sword, triggering your reaction". Player: "I'll strike at the same time then! At least no one is able to parry or dodge this" GM: "ok, both of you rolls at the same time"
    • Example: During: "He is running towards you, triggering your reaction". Player: "I'll run backwards then, so that he never gets into range"
    • Example: After: "He is runs towards you, now standing next to you, triggering your reaction". Player: "I'll roll move to retreat away a zone!"
  9. If it takes place before, Is the initiator allowed to change his action?
    • Example: Player: "I'll strike him". GM: "He uses his delayed action to run away, wasting your strike"
    • Example: Player: "I'll strike him". GM: "He uses his delayed action to run away". Player: "But I have charge, so I'll just charge him instead then?" or "ok, as he chooses to run away, I'll switch my actions to instead draw my bow and shoot him".
  10. Are you allowed to delay free actions, like a Path of the Blade fighters extra attack for 1 WP? Or do you rule that free actions can only be taken during your initiative?

So you would need to go through something like this, and I guess the best would just be to discuss with your gaming group, and try out different combinations until you find something that you all agree upon?
 
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Dizzyfugu
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Re: "Await action" during combat

Wed 15 Nov 2023, 13:40

I agree that a "Delayed Action" is not a trivial thing, since it changes the foundations and the balence of the original melee/combat sequence. Personally, even though I like the idea, think that the system "as is" requires players to make decisions and live with uncertainties. When you act early you have the benefit of directing the action and the "first strike", which I think is a VERY important benefit (I always refer to combat in Cyberpunk 2020: "What goes first, kills first!"; and I have seen that in action recently in a deadly fight between expert swordsmen - the one who moved first (incidently a PC!) walked away, the opponent was dead). At the same time you "buy" this with uncertainty about later phases in a round, so that you need to reserve actions for defense, for instance, and this also makes Free actions from Talents so valuable.

If you can simply delay your action this puts the player in a rather comfortable (but passive) position, and this needs to be penalized in some way. I like the idea of requiring/spending a Fast action to delay the Slow action until a later point in the round, maybe under a certain condition (If... then...), or when the player spontaneously decides to spend it in a different way, e.g. moving, parrying or dodging - and that maybe even with a disadvantage because the attention is focussed on something else; maybe -2 to any test that's made under these circumstances. I think that's simple and fair. But this will probably not easy to integrate with other things like Talent benefits. If a delay was allowed I'd think that something like the "Free actions co not benefit from General Talents" module from Reforged Power, and I have no idea how Free actions could be integrated, too. Do they happen after the delayed action, or at the end of the round if it was not triggered? Or simply lost, because the character was waiting passively, what IMHO would make sense?

I think our table will live without a specific rule, or at least handle the issue situationally. In some cases the "wait to strike" issue can be dealt with like an Ambush, I think, and concerning "reactive movement" we will try to better calculate the required Fast actions between opponents to come into Arm's Length for melee, I think this will already solve many problems for us.

Thanks a lot for your input! :)

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