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I was going through my one ring corebook after my players asked about shadow removal during the adventuring phase. I came accross Harden Will on page 137.

The rule states:

HARDEN WILL
Adventurers who are struggling under the burden of the Shadow may tap into their innermost reserves of spiritual energy to harden their determination, before it’s too late. For some, this effort takes the form of a demonstration of desperate strength; others enjoy a moment of clarity in their darkest moment, when all seems lost, and suddenly all doubts are cast away: In game terms, Player-heroes
whose accumulated Shadow does not yet match their maximum Hope score may choose to remove all their current Shadow, replacing it with a single Shadow Scar. A Shadow Scar is a ‘permanent’ Shadow point that can be removed only during a Yule Fellowship Phase, by choosing the Heal Scars undertaking (see page 121), but is otherwise considered as a normal Shadow point for all purposes.

So great this means heroes can remove all shadow points during the adventuring phase. However, it does not say how many times they can do this (I am including a house rule for this below).

BUT (there is often a but lol) this seems to clash with the Cultural Blessing of the Elves of Lindon which states:

THE LONG DEFEAT
The Elves find it hard to forget the taint of the Shadow once it has left its mark on their spirit. When it is time to remove accumulated Shadow during the Fellowship Phase, you can only remove a maximum of 1 point (see Spiritual Recovery, page 119).

It is clear the Long Defeat concerns Fellowship phase but it represents the effects of the shadow on Elven members. so through Harden Will the Elven here can sort of circumvent this cultural aspect which I find to be odd.

My house rule

1. Harden Will can only be invoked ONCE per game session during the adventuring phase and it costs the player 1 or 2 hope points to do so (1 point if not miserable and 2 if already miserable).

2. The Elves of Lindon can only remove half their shadow points through Harden will and then only once per adventuring phase.

In all cases, Harden Will does generate one Shadow Scar.

I find this represents the effects of shadow better and avoids the circumvention while powering down Harden will as a multiple use tool to remove shadow (even if it does leave a single shadow scar point).


Thoughts?

You've confused two different things.

Harden Will can be done as many times as you like. The consequence is that it results in a Shadow Scar. That is,.in effect, a permanent Shadow Point that can only be removed one at a time at Yule via a Yule Undertaking. It effectively reduces your Hope by one until you do so. Do it too often and you'll end up having Bouts of Madness all the time. So, if my Elf has a Max 12 Hope and 10 Shadow Points, I can Harden Will during the Adventuring Phase, and reduce my Shadow Points down to zero, avoiding the potential Bout of Madness I'd have had if I gained two more Shadow Points. However, I now have a Shadow Scar, that functions as a permanent Shadow Point. I'd only have to gain 9 Shadow Points to get back to the same situation, instead of 10. To get back to normal, I'd have to remove the Shadow Scar via the Yule Undertaking, which I can do once a year, and even then...I lose my Yule Undertaking for that year.

The Long Fall is talking about when you're in a Fellowship Phase, you can reduce your Shadow Points (not Shadow Scars) by 1-3 Shadow Points, depending on how significant your adventure was. Elves of London can only recover 1 Shadow Point each time (instead of 1-3), Elves of Mirkwood can 1-3, but only at Yule (not every adventure like other Cultures). Elves of Mirkwood can do it normally.

I'm out at the moment, but will edit in references later.

Thanks for the reply.

I did note these were indeed two different things but just saw an inherent contraction between one cultural blessing and Harden Will.

The shadow scar does indeed reduce hope by 1 until removed but I just felt this was a bit of a circumvention for elven players (I have 1) who cannot really remove more than 1 point. Harden will seems to allow the removal of all shadow point save 1.

So during play lets say the players have 9 accumulated shadow points and Hope is running low and close to this.

Using Harden Will transforms this into 1 shadow scar while preserving their hope points above 10. So sure that means a wiggle room of 9 and that works but the Elf then gets to Yule and now has far fewer shadow points to deal with despite the Long Defeat.

I am considering the implications of this but again thanks for your reply, not set on house ruling this yet, just an idea.

I don't really understand your confusion or concern, I'm afraid.

The dynamics are the same for Elves as non-Elves. The only difference is that non-Elves and Mirkwood Elves get to remove 3-9 Shadow Points each year (going by the standard cycle) during Fellowship Phases, while Lindon Elves and Rivendell Elves have a drawback can only remove 1-3 Shadow Points each year during Fellowship Phases, which is to counter their pretty powerful Cultural Blessings that allow for Magical Successes in any skill rolls (Rivendell Elves get it harsher because they also get higher Attribute Ratings). The effect is that they're more likely to get Shadow Scars (due to the 2-6 Shadow Points per year they don't get to remove) and so potentially lose Yule Undertakings and/or progress along their Shadow Path.

I'm not so much commenting on the House Rule, but trying to clarify the rule confusion, but I'm not seeing the contradiction.

The only thing I can guess is that you haven't realised that you remove 1-3 points during the Fellowship Phase (see Spiritual Recovery, p119), which is separate from Harden Will, and the Long Defeat affect this, not Harden Will.

I realize the FELLOWSHIP shadow removal no worries!
Been LMing one ring since 1st Ed! My current campaign is into session 36 too!

Was just curious about the potential rule contradiction that is all. Il my have explained it badly however but I do understand the rules quite well thanks!


Thank you for your responses.

Based on my experience running two games, one with a High Elf + Elf of Lindon, the other with an Elf of Lindon, this change seems punitive and unnecessary.

Elfs already have a drawback, and Shadow Scars are already frightening enough, as only 1 can be removed in Yule at the cost of 5 Advancement Points.

Even if players make use of "Harden Will" (and they often try to avoid it to avoid the quasi permanent shadow from it, or having to but it off for 5AP), an Elf still suffers more as they'll tend to have to Harden Will before other players, as they remove less Shadow each fellowship phase.

Is there some issue coming up in your game regarding this? I've not seen it from other people or in my own games.

It is not a contradiction, but an override.

The Harden Will rule allow all characters (not just elfs) to overcome shadow points in exchange of shadow scars during an adventure.

Outside adventure, during fellowship, all characters can reduce shadow points during the fellowship phase, there Elfs can only reduce one, others can reduce 1-3.

No contradiction at all, elfs are only affected during fellowship.

Based on my experience running two games, one with a High Elf + Elf of Lindon, the other with an Elf of Lindon, this change seems punitive and unnecessary.

Elfs already have a drawback, and Shadow Scars are already frightening enough, as only 1 can be removed in Yule at the cost of 5 Advancement Points.

Even if players make use of "Harden Will" (and they often try to avoid it to avoid the quasi permanent shadow from it, or having to but it off for 5AP), an Elf still suffers more as they'll tend to have to Harden Will before other players, as they remove less Shadow each fellowship phase.

Is there some issue coming up in your game regarding this? I've not seen it from other people or in my own games.

No immediate issue just a question from players.

I am hesitant to add rules anyway and the replies here have convinced me that the additional house rules would not "add" to the game and would perhaps be punitive so thanks all!

Elves basically have to use harden will as they are always going to be low hope/slow shadow removal. Making it in any way weaker is crushing an already tight resource for them.