Darklander
Posts: 66
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Location: Germany

Re: Use of Shields

Wed 07 Jun 2023, 11:32

Thanks for pointing this out Michele.
So e. g. if I use a Long sword and a buckler, is switching between 1h and 2h and simultaneously bringing the buckler up or down a secondary action then or does it not even count as an action at all and is for free (so a character is able to do: main action, secondary action plus this free action)?

No shield can be used with 2-handed weapons (not even a buckler).

If you draw a 2-handed weapon, or switch to 2-handed with a weapons that can be used 1-handed or 2-handed, you immediately lose the Parry modifier from your shield. You regain it as soon as you switch back to a 1-handed weapon.
 
Antaean
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Re: Use of Shields

Wed 07 Jun 2023, 11:37

No shield can be used with 2-handed weapons (not even a buckler).
Thanks for the clarification Michele!
 
Otaku-sempai
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Location: Western New York

Re: Use of Shields

Wed 07 Jun 2023, 16:21

Regarding the comment on bows, page 66 specifically states you can't use a shield whilst shooting a bow.
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No, according to RAW. However, there is historical precedent for archers to use bucklers. It can be done.
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Dunheved
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Location: UK

Re: Use of Shields

Thu 08 Jun 2023, 21:57

I am ignorant of most of this, so my "research" is quite limited. But I seem to have been labouring under the wrong idea for a while.
I supposed that a Buckler was a small shield strapped in place leaving the hand free. (I was thinking like external buckle straps on rucksacks. It seems that the buckler is a shield with a single grip in the middle of the shield for one hand to hold onto. Its a buckle that the hand holds onto. And apparently occupies the full use of the hand, even if the shield is quite a small diameter.

Better placed/fixed shields (like +2 Parry and better) must have two fittings - e.g. a buckle grip and another strap that slips over the arm further up. This shares the load along the arm and holds the shield firmer to prevent/resist the shield being twisted to one side. Naturally such fixings went with bigger and heavier/bulkier shields.

Either way the shield arm or hand is fully occupied or the shield is dropped - leaving no parry bonus. I have watched the Youtube Video (briefly) but that person may well not be a typical example of a Dark Age or early medieval style warrior. For one thing he has all the time in the world to try out new gimmicky techniques: knowing that he will never actually have to defend his own life or that of his comrades or family with a novel move or gimmick.
So far the historical pages of the Internet reinforce the RAW.
And even if the Hollywood-style flash moves are theoretically possible, they might have to stay with Legolas' surf board and exotic D n D rulings.

Apart from the 1e special Virtue - if it returns in a later production with 2e - I will stick to RAW, and not even have a House rule on this one.
 
Otaku-sempai
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Location: Western New York

Re: Use of Shields

Thu 08 Jun 2023, 22:16

I am ignorant of most of this, so my "research" is quite limited. But I seem to have been labouring under the wrong idea for a while.
I supposed that a Buckler was a small shield strapped in place leaving the hand free. (I was thinking like external buckle straps on rucksacks. It seems that the buckler is a shield with a single grip in the middle of the shield for one hand to hold onto. Its a buckle that the hand holds onto. And apparently occupies the full use of the hand, even if the shield is quite a small diameter.

Better placed/fixed shields (like +2 Parry and better) must have two fittings - e.g. a buckle grip and another strap that slips over the arm further up. This shares the load along the arm and holds the shield firmer to prevent/resist the shield being twisted to one side. Naturally such fixings went with bigger and heavier/bulkier shields.

Either way the shield arm or hand is fully occupied or the shield is dropped - leaving no parry bonus. I have watched the Youtube Video (briefly) but that person may well not be a typical example of a Dark Age or early medieval style warrior. For one thing he has all the time in the world to try out new gimmicky techniques: knowing that he will never actually have to defend his own life or that of his comrades or family with a novel move or gimmick.
So far the historical pages of the Internet reinforce the RAW.
And even if the Hollywood-style flash moves are theoretically possible, they might have to stay with Legolas' surf board and exotic D n D rulings.

Apart from the 1e special Virtue - if it returns in a later production with 2e - I will stick to RAW, and not even have a House rule on this one.
.
You make me wonder if there are two types of buckler. Isn't the key word here "buckle"? Or should what I'm thinking of be referred to as a "small shield (or, more precisely, small roundshield)"?

Image
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Dunheved
Posts: 494
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Location: UK

Re: Use of Shields

Thu 08 Jun 2023, 22:48

@ O - S

You have just said what I felt as I was reading about all this! I suspect that I have been using my meaning & applying my modern understanding of what I think a buckle is: rather than the use of a buckle style grip on the back of a saxon or viking shield that Google etc points out.

There are so many firmly held and expressed articles to scour that there simply needs to be a decision for TOR. And in this case I am content with RAW. (Though tbf I am often not so happy with RAW and I just open another clean page in my House Rule book!)

If you had asked me before today, I would have said a buckler is a plate sized disc strapped onto an arm (buckled on - with two buckles) and therefore giving limited shielding due to its fixed orientation and small size. An archer might wear such a buckler, as much to protect their hand as their body.?

But NO I am wrong it seems, so today I can say that a buckle is the type of grip needed for one hand on a small shield, and it can then be called a buckler. It is a light, small shield and has limited Parry value +1
A proper small shield would be light enough to be carried and angled with one (trained) arm, but need the full attention of that arm to work. It possibly needs a supporting strap to be attached in two places of the arm to give maximum Parry of +2
A large shield is simply less wieldy and gives better parry. The encumbrance increase is the trade off for the Parry, but only needs one arm to be applied still. It would most likely use a supporting second strap.

In fact my original ignorant description of the buckler might now only apply to the wood Elf Spearman Shield in TOR1e: and so is not yet available for RAW TOR2e. What I thought of as a small shield is in fact the buckler shield and its grip too. Oh well, you learnt something every day...

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