Lowsonic
Topic Author
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun 31 Oct 2021, 20:01

Knife - Meet helmet

Thu 18 May 2023, 01:50

Hiya

Just wondering how others play a certain situation. The hand-to-hand combat bod has the drop on a target, so he goes in for a called shot to the throat to silence the victim. +3 for ambush, -2 for called shot. The knife hits with one hit, but the helmet's there (armour 1+1 for the knife) negating the damage.

Yet the attack was to go for where the armour wasn't (ie the called shot). Would you...

• Say the called shot is a -3 for the throat (harder to hit but easier damage)
• Say tough, the helmet just got in the way (easier to hit just unlucky)
• Say the way to do the attack is a grapple then grapple attack (but both parties fall to the ground)
• have another house rule to accommodate?

rgds nick
 
Heffe
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri 14 Aug 2020, 19:32

Re: Knife - Meet helmet

Thu 18 May 2023, 02:14

This is a topic that came up on the 4e Discord a little while back, and unfortunately it didn't have a clear consensus on how to handle this kind of situation. What we know is that when attempting to pull off such a move, there are a few things to keep in mind.
  • In all likelihood, the player has already had to roll to sneak at least once to get into position to slit someone's throat.
  • The rules about killing an incapacitated enemy don't seem to apply here, as the enemy isn't technically incapacitated.
In short, this is up to Referee discretion.

At my table, this is how we handle it - after the opposed recon roll(s) to sneak into position (notably with a -2 for same hex), I have the player roll a melee attack on the target with a +3 for ambush but a -2 for called shot. 2 or more successes results in an instant kill. 1 success results in damage to the target and automatic grapple (without the target screaming out this turn). Zero successes "misses" and does no damage (but the target is still caught unawares and doesn't call out this turn). One or more 1s rolled on a failure results in zero damage being done and the target calling out to alert others. Unless the PC has the Killer specialty, they also roll CUF to see if they take a point of stress for the action.
 
Oddball_E8
Posts: 441
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 20:13

Re: Knife - Meet helmet

Thu 18 May 2023, 20:46

I've been thinking about this since the last time I played (where one of my players made a similar sneak attack with a knife).

And I think I'm gonna roll it this way:

1: Opposed recon check to get close.
2: Grapple check to grapple (called shot) the person in a way that they can't scream. -FAST ACTION (due to unawares target, you're not really struggling to get a grip)
2: Knife attack against the throat (called shot again) to see if you are fast enough to stab them before they can wiggle free or scream or attack you.

So, to make a sneak attack with a knife you'd have to succeed with an opposed recon roll (with all the modifications that are in effect for the conditions), then a grapple action (unarmed combat with -2) and then lastly a melee attack (melee with -2).

That's quite a lot of rolls with modifiers to make it a stealth kill. I'm good with that. Hell, even with a character that has A in Str, Agi, Melee, Recon *and* Unarmed combat would have a decent chance to fail at one of those rolls if they try to do it regularly.
 
paladin2019
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon 07 Dec 2020, 09:16

Re: Knife - Meet helmet

Thu 18 May 2023, 23:16

Called shots, and the -2 modifier, are only to bypass the random location die. The most accurate a called shot can be is "head". Perhaps the character had bad luck and the target moved so that their helmet was in the way or did so in a manner that caused the attacker to abort. Either way, the target takes no damage. If you want to add house rules with higher modifiers that also allow for bypassing armor on the location targeted by a called shot, that's an evolution of this conversation.
 
Heffe
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri 14 Aug 2020, 19:32

Re: Knife - Meet helmet

Fri 19 May 2023, 00:20

Called shots, and the -2 modifier, are only to bypass the random location die. The most accurate a called shot can be is "head". Perhaps the character had bad luck and the target moved so that their helmet was in the way or did so in a manner that caused the attacker to abort. Either way, the target takes no damage. If you want to add house rules with higher modifiers that also allow for bypassing armor on the location targeted by a called shot, that's an evolution of this conversation.
You're correct when looking at Rules As Written. But then, the rules don't really account for this particular kind of engagement, or if they do, they feel insufficient. There's a big difference between sneaking up behind someone and attempting to slit their throat, and sneaking up behind someone and trying to stab them in the head knowing that it might be deflected off of a helmet. The rules really only account for the latter, but actual human melee combat can often be a lot more nuanced. I believe the Op was trying to discern a way to house rule this particular situation that might feel better for their players, given the nature of the ask.
 
paladin2019
Posts: 432
Joined: Mon 07 Dec 2020, 09:16

Re: Knife - Meet helmet

Fri 19 May 2023, 04:45

Yes, providing context for what the rules describe and how to interpret those results is useless to establishing a baseline for houserules moving forward. It's useless for establishing how much more or less difficult the feat you want to make rules for is than the baseline so you can adjust accordingly. Making a recommendation for how to write such a rule, "higher modifiers that also allow for bypassing armor on the location targeted" is useless.

Got it, I won't contribute anymore to the discussion because my input is useless to the !OP.
 
Heffe
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri 14 Aug 2020, 19:32

Re: Knife - Meet helmet

Fri 19 May 2023, 21:07

Relax bud I wasn't taking a shot at you. I had just assumed that everyone was already clear on the rules as written, which is what led to the original question. I could absolutely be wrong about that, so your post was still worthwhile.
 
Vcutter
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat 23 May 2020, 09:55

Re: Knife - Meet helmet

Sun 21 May 2023, 21:34

I too found called shot pretty useless in general (especially against the "mook NPC's that go down with crit")
I implemented the following house rules and they have worked pretty welll:
In melee the called shot with a small edged melee weapon like a knife allows you to bypass the armor in the location totally. This represents the precision of the attack and makes called shots more viable and worth the minus. Note that if the armor is totally covering the area (like a blast suit or "Maska" -helmet), then this is not feasible.

For ranged combat called shots to the head give the NPC -1 in the CuF roll. This represents the psychological effect of getting hit in the head as well as the concussive effect. Main idea was to make head called shots more desirable.

Both have worked well and especially the melee one brings more tactics into the close combat and gives the knives a nice little...you know...edge.
 
Mr Oldtimer
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun 14 Apr 2019, 12:01

Re: Knife - Meet helmet

Sun 21 May 2023, 22:19

I too found called shot pretty useless in general (especially against the "mook NPC's that go down with crit")
I implemented the following house rules and they have worked pretty welll:
In melee the called shot with a small edged melee weapon like a knife allows you to bypass the armor in the location totally. This represents the precision of the attack and makes called shots more viable and worth the minus. Note that if the armor is totally covering the area (like a blast suit or "Maska" -helmet), then this is not feasible.

For ranged combat called shots to the head give the NPC -1 in the CuF roll. This represents the psychological effect of getting hit in the head as well as the concussive effect. Main idea was to make head called shots more desirable.

Both have worked well and especially the melee one brings more tactics into the close combat and gives the knives a nice little...you know...edge.
Nice one. I will implement your take on called melee attacks in my game.

For called head shots, I rule mook NPCs don't get to roll CUF at all and are automatically supressed. That way, the PCs are willing to take the -2 and aim for the head, even if the target has a helmet. Otherwise they always aim for the arms, because of no armor and they know a crit will incapacitate the NPCs anyway. And if the NPC is not a mook, it will at least drop the weapon on a crit to the arms.
 
HaplessOperator
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu 01 Jun 2023, 18:20

Re: Knife - Meet helmet

Thu 01 Jun 2023, 18:43

Hiya

Just wondering how others play a certain situation. The hand-to-hand combat bod has the drop on a target, so he goes in for a called shot to the throat to silence the victim. +3 for ambush, -2 for called shot. The knife hits with one hit, but the helmet's there (armour 1+1 for the knife) negating the damage.

Yet the attack was to go for where the armour wasn't (ie the called shot). Would you...

• Say the called shot is a -3 for the throat (harder to hit but easier damage)
• Say tough, the helmet just got in the way (easier to hit just unlucky)
• Say the way to do the attack is a grapple then grapple attack (but both parties fall to the ground)
• have another house rule to accommodate?

rgds nick
Long and short of it is that the rules in Twilight for this don't make much sense at all, cuz helmets make it easier to do what you're thinking about to someone. You grab the helmet with your weak hand, crank it back as far and as hard as you can, as if you're trying to make their helmet touch their ass, exposing the neck, and then you start stabbing the hell out of them as many times as you can downward into the chest along the neck and upper chest. Wearing a helmet in a hand to hand fight has its ups and downs, cuz it's way harder to bonk you, but it sort of sucks, cuz it's an extremely solid grab point attached to your head that doesn't usually exist, so you can kind of grab someone and bulldog them around by the head if they've got a helmet on in a way you can't really do at all if they're not wearing one.

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