DarrenH
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Misdeeds, murder and shadow points

Wed 29 Mar 2023, 23:23

I'm thinking about how to apply Shadow gain to actions the PCs take against adversaries who have a Resolve rating. (As opposed to Hate.) A simple example. The PCs have tracked down a group of bandits (Evil Men) without being discovered themselves. These bandits have robbed innocent people, but not killed anyone as far as the PCs know. The safest way to deal with them would be to ambush and kill them. Problem solved. But I think this would be considered a misdeed?

How many Shadow Points should the PCs gain if they carry out this plan? The rules say Murder should gain 4 Shadow and 1 Shadow Scar. This seems like a lot in the scenario above. I think of Murder as a premeditated act carried out for some personal gain or cold-blooded revenge. The heroes in the books tend to give adversaries a chance to surrender and be shown to the borders before resorting to violence. On the other hand, letting the bad guys go free might mean further harm to innocents in the future.

Are the PCs obligated to attempt to capture the bandits and give them a trial of some kind?

If the foes refuse to surrender, can they be slain with a clear conscience?

What if the PCs don't think they can defeat the bandits in a fair fight, but an ambush would be successful?

How would the penalty change if the aforementioned bandits were known to have killed innocent people?

I like the idea of the PCs operating at a disadvantage because they have a higher moral code. I think hard moral choices are nicely consistent with the world. (Bilbo and Frodo sparing Gollum, etc.) However, players being players, I'm sure they will want to handle problems the old-fashioned way sooner or later. I want to think it through before it comes up. Thoughts?
 
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Hornbach
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Re: Misdeeds, murder and shadow points

Thu 30 Mar 2023, 00:17

I think that your example would be considered a misdeed, though a lower form of un-ethical killing. Maybe 3 shadow points would be appropriate.

I think the thing for the heroes to do without risking a misdeed, in the case of foes who won't surrender, is to approach them with the warning that they will take them into custody to bring them to the local authorities. The moment the bandits attack in response, the heroes may attack with lethal force in return, in self-defense.
 
Otaku-sempai
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Re: Misdeeds, murder and shadow points

Thu 30 Mar 2023, 03:17

If the bandits surrender to the Heroes or are captured then they could be turned over to local authorities. There is no need for the Heroes to act as Judge and Jury unless no such authority exists. If the bandits force the issue and the Heroes have no choice but to fight them then mercy can still be extended in victory. If the bandits are slain out-of-hand then that would be a misdeed.
#FideltyToTolkien
 
DarrenH
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Re: Misdeeds, murder and shadow points

Thu 30 Mar 2023, 05:38

This is kinda what I was thinking. 3 shadow points. The heroes are still free to kill them, of course. Sometimes that might be the only way to protect innocent people and you have to take one for the team. I really love this mechanic. When do the ends justify the means? Who knows? At least it forces the murder hobos to think about it before killing everything.
 
Dunheved
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Re: Misdeeds, murder and shadow points

Thu 30 Mar 2023, 07:44

Ambushing without warning? (As in shoot first, ask Q later). = Same penalty as murder, and give them the full Shadow penalty too.

You don't reveal if the PC s have the sanction of the law on their side. Are they commissioned by any authority to even pursue and track these crooks? So far the robbers have robbed "innocent" people. Would Gandalf agree with such execution? Or even the violent ambush? If not, the Company are acting as vigilantes themselves and may be acting as badly as the criminals themselves or even worse. Faramir ambushed the Southrons without warning, but had the sanction of his Lord and the excuse that they were at War already.

The ambush can be to surround the robbers and then call on them to surrender. If violent resistance is started by the robbers, then it's a fair game fight and the Company might be able to attack without picking up Shadow points.

When the ruffians were dealt with by Merry & Pippin as the Shire is scoured; all survivors are escorted to the boundaries are ejected. Tolkien does not seem to accept execution as a legitimate response even by the authorities.

I accept what you say by dealing with the matter "the old fashioned way" - but that way endorses all the violence of the ages by excusing it as some sort of revenge justice. Tolkien does not seem not agree here. By NOT having Hate points, but having RESOLVE points, you have to accept that these criminals can be redeemed. Execution is therefore murder.
 
DarrenH
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Re: Misdeeds, murder and shadow points

Thu 30 Mar 2023, 16:30

You make a good argument. I hadn't considered Gandalf's words to Frodo in Moria concerning Gollum -- kinda says it all. I need to stop thinking of Shadow points as a punishment for bad behavior. They are just a thing that happens when you take certain actions. Like falling when you walk off a cliff.

Free will is a major theme in Tolkien's work. Eru's gift to his children. And the choices you make with that freedom determine your destiny.

I'm thinking about this because I know it's going to come up A LOT. It's going to feel, at first anyway, like I'm trying to railroad the players into acting a certain way. I need to be sure I understand it so I can explain it better.
 
Calle
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Re: Misdeeds, murder and shadow points

Thu 30 Mar 2023, 17:50

I have a question about Shadow points - In Old skins and bone the Heroes find the map. They bring back the uncles body for the family to re-bury. When asked about the map they lie to the brother (Toms father) and says there was no map. Should you give the heroes shadow points by this act? I am leaning to it.
 
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Harlath
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Re: Misdeeds, murder and shadow points

Thu 30 Mar 2023, 17:57

As a general note on misdeeds I try to follow the book's advice and warn the players before they commit a misdeed. This helps avoid conflict at the table.

Additionally, if players try to be heroic and minimise bloodshed I don't give out Shadow: they can knock out bandits if they ambush them, or offer them the chance to surrender etc. I try to do what will reinforce the themes of the game while facilitating fun.
 
DarrenH
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Re: Misdeeds, murder and shadow points

Thu 30 Mar 2023, 18:37

Yeah, warn them for sure. The D&D mindset is strong with them. My goal is to have a campaign that feels like Middle Earth without being a jerk about it.
 
DarrenH
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Re: Misdeeds, murder and shadow points

Thu 30 Mar 2023, 18:51

On the question of lying, I think I would always give at least one shadow point. Maybe more. It might seem like there is a good reason to withhold the truth. But when you do, you violate the other party's free will. You are deciding FOR them what is best, instead of giving them the truth and letting them choose. There may be times when it seems necessary for the greater good, but you are still using the enemy's tools, so you take a hit.

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