Nolorfin
Topic Author
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed 08 Feb 2023, 21:00

Recoil House Rules

Wed 08 Feb 2023, 21:06

I'm wondering if the community has developed any recoil rules that are fast and easy to apply.

I've been thinking about requiring the Strength die step number (D=1, C=2, B=3, A=4) to be equal or higher than the ROF used, or the attack suffers a -2 modifier (alternatively, the range modifier could be doubled). A stable platform (cover or bipod) would add +2 to the die step number.
 
Vcutter
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat 23 May 2020, 09:55

Re: Recoil House Rules

Thu 09 Feb 2023, 02:52

”Realismwise” I wouldnt do it because the round is long enough to make numerous shots with good control. Being that ammo dice doesn’t necessaroly mean full auto. It might also lead into weird situations: spend three ammo dice and then it turns out you shot 4 rounds in 10 seconds and were unable to handle the recoil?
Gameplaywise giving the -2 or something to hit would mean players probably wouldn’t use ammo dice that much since the lowered chance to hit probably wouldn’t be offset by 1/6 chance of ammo die (which might not even be a hit if the base dice missed.)
As the rules stand I would like to encourage people to use MORE ammo dice (eats up resources/reliability and causes jams etc.) If you go the opposite route you will miss out on all those things.
If I may ask what are you gaining gameplaywise of you encourage less use of ammo dice? Even now it is pretty random addition to the chances to hit simulating the recoil already imo.
 
Nolorfin
Topic Author
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed 08 Feb 2023, 21:00

Re: Recoil House Rules

Thu 09 Feb 2023, 08:46

You make some very good points, thank you. You've convinced me not to use recoil rules, but for argument's sake, I'd like to say that full auto would still be useful for suppression, which is its intended purpose anyway. You are not supposed to hit anything when you go full auto.
 
Vcutter
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat 23 May 2020, 09:55

Re: Recoil House Rules

Thu 09 Feb 2023, 13:18

Think of suppression this way:
First of all, usually the shooter is trying to hit a target if he sees it, even if the chance to do so is extremely low. (This is usually the case, if you deliberately shoot to miss and want suppression only, then just roll the ammo dice.) The lower your chance to hit is, the more likely you are to achive only suppression and no damage with ammo dice.

Now judge the results after the roll: If the shooter missed his base die but unloaded with lots of ammo then the shooter made the decision in the 5-10 sec time window to just suppress the target because the opportunity to achieve a good hit wasn't there. Or maybe he was actually trying to hit with full auto but the recoil made him miss, since like you mentioned, full auto is mostly used for suppression.
If on the other hand he managed to hit the target and spent lots of ammo it wasn't necessarily a full-auto barrage: it was short controlled bursts where only the last shots actually hit and had effect.

I've found out that a good way to run TW combat rounds when ammo dice are used is to actually describe afterwards with more detail what the character was doing, based on what the player was trying to achieve and the die results. Even in real life firefights seldom people go "Ok, I am gonna shoot that guy 4 times and then 3 times the other one", they fire until they reach the desired outcome on target or the opportunity passes. Controlled single shots being of course an exception (meaning no ammo dice, no recoil to affect the other shots).

This also allows you as a GM to highlight the competency of different characters: a librarian who just got handed his AK and misses you could easily describe as how the recoil surprises him and the last of the magazine is emptied towards the sky. A skilled spec ops guy who misses with the same AK probably missed his opportunity to hit with short accurate bursts but unfortunately the target was able to take cover etc.
 
sgt
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat 26 Dec 2020, 21:37

Re: Recoil House Rules

Thu 09 Feb 2023, 23:01

Check out the Centrefire weapon expansion books in drivethruu. Very good community source books.

Each weapon has a limit how many ammo dice can be used without a -1 to the roll. This might be anything from 0 (for heavy snipers) to no limit (for low recoil smgs).

That being said, we don't use the recoil rule. Ammo dice suck enough without extra penalties :)
Last edited by sgt on Thu 09 Feb 2023, 23:07, edited 2 times in total.
 
Nolorfin
Topic Author
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed 08 Feb 2023, 21:00

Re: Recoil House Rules

Thu 09 Feb 2023, 23:04

Check out the Centrefire weapon expansion books in drivethruu. Very good community source books.

Each weapon has a limit how many ammo dice can be used without a -1 to the roll. This might be anything from 0 (for heavy snipers) to no limit (for low recoil smgs).
Thank you! I will check it out.
 
Nolorfin
Topic Author
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed 08 Feb 2023, 21:00

Re: Recoil House Rules

Thu 09 Feb 2023, 23:13

Think of suppression this way:
First of all, usually the shooter is trying to hit a target if he sees it, even if the chance to do so is extremely low. (This is usually the case, if you deliberately shoot to miss and want suppression only, then just roll the ammo dice.) The lower your chance to hit is, the more likely you are to achive only suppression and no damage with ammo dice.

Now judge the results after the roll: If the shooter missed his base die but unloaded with lots of ammo then the shooter made the decision in the 5-10 sec time window to just suppress the target because the opportunity to achieve a good hit wasn't there. Or maybe he was actually trying to hit with full auto but the recoil made him miss, since like you mentioned, full auto is mostly used for suppression.
If on the other hand he managed to hit the target and spent lots of ammo it wasn't necessarily a full-auto barrage: it was short controlled bursts where only the last shots actually hit and had effect.

I've found out that a good way to run TW combat rounds when ammo dice are used is to actually describe afterwards with more detail what the character was doing, based on what the player was trying to achieve and the die results. Even in real life firefights seldom people go "Ok, I am gonna shoot that guy 4 times and then 3 times the other one", they fire until they reach the desired outcome on target or the opportunity passes. Controlled single shots being of course an exception (meaning no ammo dice, no recoil to affect the other shots).

This also allows you as a GM to highlight the competency of different characters: a librarian who just got handed his AK and misses you could easily describe as how the recoil surprises him and the last of the magazine is emptied towards the sky. A skilled spec ops guy who misses with the same AK probably missed his opportunity to hit with short accurate bursts but unfortunately the target was able to take cover etc.
Those are good ideas, and are inline with my usual GMing style. The issue I see is that this narrative approach is counter to the simulationist nature of T2k. Even though 4th edition is a much simplified version of the game, it's clear FLP has tried to keep its simulationist roots in place, and when we play this game, my players and I enjoy delving into the more nuanced aspects of combat, which lead to interesting tactical decisions.

For example, you only benefit from a stable platform with telescopic sights at the moment, so naturally players won't spend precious actions to slow aim unless they are using them. Some kind of recoil rule that would be countered with a stable platform would offer players more interesting decisions to make in combat, which after-the-fact narrative descriptions don't provide.

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