Forum

You define STR and AGL as:

Strength (STR): Raw muscle power.
Agility (AGL): Body control, speed, and fine motor skills.

AGL is clearly, BY YOUR DEFINITION OF THE ATTRIBUTES, the correct Attribute for Crafting. Do really think that Crafting is all about the application of raw muscle power? Have you ever crafted anything?

Aside from the fact that this is at worst an issue of flavour text, and not a mechanical one, I disagree completely with your conclusion.

First, Agility seems more about athletics than it is about manual dexterity. "Fine motor skills" may be misleading, but both the name 'Agility' and the description you provided yourself don't really hint at the specific kind of manual dexterity of a potter or calligrapher, for example.

Second, the description of the Crafting ability exclusively reads:
"As an adventurer, you must often repair your gear if it breaks. Typically, it takes one shift to repair a broken item, and you need access to the appropriate tools (page 78)."
Again, this suggests a blacksmith's kind of craft, not a jeweler's.

Same if you look into the other applications of the skill, which are the heroic abilities Master Carpenter, Master Blacksmith and Master Tanner (which all require a moderate rank in the skill, even if they don't make you roll it). I personally can't see the relevance of an attribute called 'Agility' into the described applications of any of these abilities. I could maybe see your point if the attribute was called Precision or Finesse, but not for Agility.
On the other hand, both carpentry and blacksmithing require at the very least a modicum of arm strength and, especially, a good deal of stamina. So, I see more of a relevance of Strength than of Agility to both these activities.

Of course neither attribute is perfect for the skill, since you can't hammer a sword if you completely lack coordination, and these are all activities that require technical knowledge and experience more than they do either strength or agility. But the same could be said of most skills and of most game systems; it is normal for some definitions being a bit loose and some dependencies being simplified, because otherwise, by your logic, literally any skill that involves any degree of coordination and control of your hands or other body parts should be based on Agility - you need to make precise gestures to cast spells, you need footwork and precision in your swordsmanship, you need fine control of your fingers for healing, you need to control your tongue to speak.

I am working with the given definitions of the Attributes. I'd prefer a separate Manual Dexterity Attribute, but the authors chose to lump that in with Agility. "Fine Motor" muscles are used for any part of any crafting that is not subject to brute force. Even with strong arms, the black smith needs to be able to be agile enough to put the hammer in the right place for the blow to matter.

/shrug/

Defining Attributes a certain way and then ignoring that definition is not attending to the details of the game's design. It is a shame that "Attention to Detail" has fallen out of favour.

A minor observation, but I find it a little odd that some Heroic Abilities, like Contortionist and Lone Wolf, will just allow to bypass a check on the same skills they have as a requisite. While on one hand it makes sense, it's a bit weird to make your character good at one skill only to then get an ability that makes you not need that skill value anymore (even if these heroic abilities only cover certain applications of those skills).
In this sense, I suggest maybe it could be more rewarding if these abilities could be used when you fail one of the relevant checks to turn it into a success, instead of letting you bypass the check before rolling (maybe costing 2 WP instead of 1 to make up for it). This way the user would still feel 'rewarded' for their skill score, since being good at a skill means they'll need to use the heroic ability less often, while accomplishing the same result of allowing them to choose not to fail the check for a WP cost.

I think this is a pretty good idea. If you have those abilities, spend 1 or 2 WP and make a re-roll, showing that you are skilled enough to recover from what others would have failed in doing.

I am working with the given definitions of the Attributes. I'd prefer a separate Manual Dexterity Attribute, but the authors chose to lump that in with Agility. "Fine Motor" muscles are used for any part of any crafting that is not subject to brute force. Even with strong arms, the black smith needs to be able to be agile enough to put the hammer in the right place for the blow to matter.

/shrug/

Defining Attributes a certain way and then ignoring that definition is not attending to the details of the game's design. It is a shame that "Attention to Detail" has fallen out of favour.

Bad description of the attributes maybe, but STR might just represent technique to apply force correctly rather than raw brute force. Realistically there would be a combination of attributes that applies to crafting. No single craft would use only a single attribute. But I see that they want to keep the game simple to manage and play. I suspect we could see secondary skills that goes into more detail with crafting.

I am working with the given definitions of the Attributes. I'd prefer a separate Manual Dexterity Attribute, but the authors chose to lump that in with Agility. "Fine Motor" muscles are used for any part of any crafting that is not subject to brute force. Even with strong arms, the black smith needs to be able to be agile enough to put the hammer in the right place for the blow to matter.

/shrug/

Defining Attributes a certain way and then ignoring that definition is not attending to the details of the game's design. It is a shame that "Attention to Detail" has fallen out of favour.

Bad description of the attributes maybe, but STR might just represent technique to apply force correctly rather than raw brute force. Realistically there would be a combination of attributes that applies to crafting. No single craft would use only a single attribute. But I see that they want to keep the game simple to manage and play. I suspect we could see secondary skills that goes into more detail with crafting.

Read the STR Attribute description again. It says, "Raw muscle power." The meaning is clear and says nothing about "technique". "Technique" is control and is covered by Agility. STR is raw muscle power, aka "brute force". Words have meaning.

I was just pondering the lack of a general Athletics skill relative to Acrobatics, and then read the Acrobatics skill and noted it covers things I would normally have included in the description of Athletics. The description covers “jumping, climbing, balancing or performing a similar physical action”. While balancing and jumping can be/are acrobatic, high/long jumping is also a common athletics activity and I wouldn’t say climbing is a particularly acrobatic activity.

Athletics just seems (to me anyway) to be a better ‘catch-all’ term for physical activity than Acrobatics, which seems to be what the skill is aimed at being. Not going to die in a ditch over this, but does anyone else share this view?

I've been using it that way on my desk and it's working perfectly.

Axes (STR)
Brawling (STR)
Maces & Hammers (and Staves) (STR)
Shields (STR)
Spears (STR)
Swords (STR)
Bow & Crossbows (and Slings) (AGL)
Knives (AGL)

Athletics (Acrobatics) (STR)
Crafts (STR)
Swimming (STR)

Evade (AGL)
Hunting & Fishing (AGL)
Sleight of Hand (AGL)
Sneaking (AGL)

Awareness (INT)
Beast Lore (INT)
Bushcraft (INT)
Healing (INT)
Insight (INT)
Languages (INT)
Myths & Legends (INT)
Seamanship (INT)
Spot Hidden (INT)
Magic (INT)

Animal Handling (Riding) (CHA)
Bartering (CHA)
Bluffing (CHA)
Leadership (CHA)
Intimidation (CHA)
Persuasion (CHA)
Performance (CHA)

Considering how there has been talk about how certain spells outclass certain Heroic Abilities, i wanted to pitch rather than nerfing the spells (I think that playing a mage should feel powerful in certain ways), that some heroic abilities get's some buffs instead.

I was mainly thinking off two, Catlike and Masterchef.

Catlike
✦ Requirement: Acrobatics 12
✦ Willpower Points: Varies
You can move with the grace of a cat. The number of D6 rolled for damage from a fall (page 53) decreases by one for each WP spent. You can first make an ACROBATICS roll and then activate this heroic ability.
Additionally, when you make an ACROBATICS roll to maintain your balance, or making a SNEAKING roll to move within melee range with a weapon to an enemy, you can activate this ability for 1wp to roll with a boon

This gives the Ability some more utility beyond falling damage, and keeping the "graceful mover" aspect.

Master Chef
✦ Requirement: —
✦ Willpower Points: 1
You are an expert in preparing and cooking food out in the field. You automatically succeed at cooking food (page 103) without rolling BUSHCRAFT.
Additionally, when rolling to determine how many rations you get from foraging, fishing, hunting or livestock, you can activate this ability to roll twice, and pick the better result.

This makes you more capable of obtaining rations for the whole group, on the fantasy of you know how to prepare the bits, parts and pieces most would probably let go to waste.

Considering how there has been talk about how certain spells outclass certain Heroic Abilities, i wanted to pitch rather than nerfing the spells (I think that playing a mage should feel powerful in certain ways), that some heroic abilities get's some buffs instead.

I was mainly thinking off two, Catlike and Masterchef.

Master Chef
✦ Requirement: —
✦ Willpower Points: 1
You are an expert in preparing and cooking food out in the field. You automatically succeed at cooking food (page 103) without rolling BUSHCRAFT.
Additionally, when rolling to determine how many rations you get from foraging, fishing, hunting or livestock, you can activate this ability to roll twice, and pick the better result.

This makes you more capable of obtaining rations for the whole group, on the fantasy of you know how to prepare the bits, parts and pieces most would probably let go to waste.

if i recall right, in forbidden lands, the highest level of chief restored the empathy of those that eat their food.
So perhaps even better, those that eat their food would gain a benefit to restore willpower? (master chief sounds more as a quality over quantity thing as well)

if i recall right, in forbidden lands, the highest level of chief restored the empathy of those that eat their food.
So perhaps even better, those that eat their food would gain a benefit to restore willpower? (master chief sounds more as a quality over quantity thing as well)

This is neat. Would make really interesting to have some kind of real benefit to eat a really good food, would be thematic and mechanic fitting IMO.