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JohnWithAgun
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat 18 Jun 2022, 14:27

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Tue 07 Feb 2023, 09:34

My own beef with opposed rolls is that the winner is the one that rolled lowest instead of highest while still succeeding like it's done in every other BRP game following a similar format. It basically removes the advantage of a highly skilled individual. I already have a thread about that in these forums, so wasn't going to bring it up again. All I know is that if the opposed roll rules remain as is, I'll just personally house rule that highest successful roll wins to match the experience of players familiar with other BRP games.
I like this idea/intention, but it does create a awkward situation with banes, where you would actively want at least 1 if you have high skills :S
 
ThornPlutonius
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu 08 Dec 2022, 21:07

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Tue 07 Feb 2023, 19:29

You are still assigning some skills to attributes in a way that ignores how you've defined those attributes.

For example, you define Crafting as:

CRAFTING (STR)
As an adventurer, you must often repair your gear if it breaks. Typically, it takes one shift to repair a broken item, and you need access to the appropriate tools (page 78).

You define STR and AGL as:

Strength (STR): Raw muscle power.
Agility (AGL): Body control, speed, and fine motor skills.

AGL is clearly, BY YOUR DEFINITION OF THE ATTRIBUTES, the correct Attribute for Crafting. Do really think that Crafting is all about the application of raw muscle power? Have you ever crafted anything?

I posted a more complete discussion of your error with respect to use of STR and AGL in an independent thread on this forum. (https://forum.frialigan.se/viewtopic.php?t=10449)

It is really very difficult to have any confidence in your ability to produce a quality game when you insist upon making fundamental errors like this.
 
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Mcgibs
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun 29 Jan 2023, 01:22

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Tue 07 Feb 2023, 21:48

Like with any RPG system, attributes are abstracted a bit, and arguments can be made in many different directions. While carving a tiny ivory figurine might be more dexterity/agility based, building a log cabin certainly would be more strength based, while making a complex trap might even be intelligence based. It's not really a one-size fits all solution, so I think for the purposes of streamlining things and spreading skills out between more attributes (agility already has quite a few), they tied it to strength. Skills are pretty divorced from attributes once you get a few sessions in, so I don't see it as a huge issue.

My personal rationality is that Strength is how you physically exert yourself upon the world, while Agility is how you physically move yourself through the world. One is external, the other is internal.
 
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Rathalos32
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed 07 Dec 2022, 20:14

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Wed 08 Feb 2023, 04:44

About the weasal... Can you combo weasel with other HA? Like, can a character use Guardian to pull the attack to him and then use weasel to redirect the attack to another person? The same for a chained weasel (character A redirect to character B and that redirect to character C)? Can't see why this would not be the case...
 
artikid
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon 16 Jan 2023, 16:55

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Wed 08 Feb 2023, 11:35

Talking of opposed rolls, I'd rather leave the rules as they are.
I really dislike it when a character with low skill finally gets to make their roll and then loses a contest because the high-skill opponent manages to roll a higher value.
It's like the low-skill character has even less chances of success.
 
Gimkin
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun 05 Feb 2023, 19:47

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Wed 08 Feb 2023, 12:10

I also like the rule as it is. The lower number wins is easy and fast.

It might be the point of view which is a problem. If you see the rolled number as a relative number to your max number you might say, that it is unfair that the Character which rolled a three and has a skill of five wins if you roll a four and your skill is e.g. twelve. If you see the values as absolut values from a max value of 18, than you are ok with the value, cause a 4 is not as good as a 3.

So there are two possible rules. The rule as it is now, or the rule to calculate the difference between the rolled value and the max value and compare them. But in my opinion this has another disadvantage. Rolling a dragon would not integrate as well, because even though your difference might be 3 times higher than your opponents one the dragon will win (e.g. you roll 4 of 15 and your oponent 1 of 5). Scoring critical feels better integrated if the lower score wins. At least in my opinion.
 
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VorpalMace
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu 01 Sep 2022, 14:16
Location: Budapest
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Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Wed 08 Feb 2023, 14:56

Like with any RPG system, attributes are abstracted a bit, and arguments can be made in many different directions. While carving a tiny ivory figurine might be more dexterity/agility based, building a log cabin certainly would be more strength based, while making a complex trap might even be intelligence based.
Ironically old-school RuneQuest already did a better job by tying each skill to multiple ability scores. Of course even there one can argue that some pairings are awkward (like every other use of Power), but at least each ability score had more dimensions in their usability.
 
JohnWithAgun
Posts: 134
Joined: Sat 18 Jun 2022, 14:27

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Wed 08 Feb 2023, 15:03

Skills are not tired to attribute points, only their starting value is.

There is nothing stopping you from have 3 strength and 18 crafting as i understand the rules
 
ThornPlutonius
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu 08 Dec 2022, 21:07

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Wed 08 Feb 2023, 20:20

Like with any RPG system, attributes are abstracted a bit, and arguments can be made in many different directions. While carving a tiny ivory figurine might be more dexterity/agility based, building a log cabin certainly would be more strength based, while making a complex trap might even be intelligence based.
Ironically old-school RuneQuest already did a better job by tying each skill to multiple ability scores. Of course even there one can argue that some pairings are awkward (like every other use of Power), but at least each ability score had more dimensions in their usability.

The fact that DoD/DragonBane is historically rooted in Basic Roleplaying only strengthens the argument to do a better job of correctly matching skills/vocations correctly to Attributes.


Skills are not tired to attribute points, only their starting value is.

There is nothing stopping you from have 3 strength and 18 crafting as i understand the rules

Then there should be no problem with fixing the error.
 
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Kaybe
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri 14 May 2021, 18:26

Re: Dragonbane Beta v3 Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Wed 08 Feb 2023, 22:41

I like this idea/intention, but it does create a awkward situation with banes, where you would actively want at least 1 if you have high skills :S
THAT ... is an excellent point. I hadn't considered the effect of boons and banes. Fortunately, the rules for boon/banes state, and I quote, " If you have a boon, only the best result applies.
If you have a bane, only the worst result applies." What's considered best and worst can be subjectively applied and comes down to which of the two results favors that PC the most on that roll. In the case of a boon, the player can very immediately say which he or she prefers. In the case of a bane, player simply uses the honor system to point to the result that is objectively worst for what he or she is trying to accomplish. Now if banes specifically stated lowest and bane stayed highest, that could be a problem.
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