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Short Fey
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Quick sheet for NPC attributes

Tue 07 Feb 2023, 22:51

With the fact npcs now have a base chance skill level of 5 in untrained skills (and taking inspiration from points found across the forum), i cobbled together a sheet to figure out attributes for npcs. It might not be perfect, but it works in a pinch. I have posted this on different threads but i'll make a summery of it here.

STR/AGL
An Npc's STR/AGL is based on what Damage Bonus Die they have.
None: Default to a 9.
D4: 13
D6: 17

(You can give the npc different STR/AGL if you want to. Consider, however, to do this primarly towards noteworthy npcs)
None: 9-12
D4: 13-16
D6: 17-18

CON.
An NPC's CON is equal to their maximum HP value, excluding any points gained from the ROBUST heroic ability.

WILL
An NPC'S WILL is equal to their maximum WP value, excluding any points gained from the FOCUSED heroic ability. If they do not have any WP listed, default to a value of 9.

What about INT/CHA?
Sense there is no mechanic that specifically requires INT/CHA, and npcs should not make rolls unless it directly affects the players (aka combat), it is currently not necessary to list these for now.

Why default to a 9?
Sense the Skill base chance is a 5, this would mean on a player character they have an attribute value of 9-12. I opted for 9 as it means it gives the player a slightly bigger chance of success, but it still gives mages a reason to opt to pay more WP when casting spells such as Ensnaring roots.
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zcthu3
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed 29 May 2019, 10:34

Re: Quick sheet for NPC attributes

Wed 08 Feb 2023, 06:12

With the fact npcs now have a base chance skill level of 5 in untrained skills (and taking inspiration from points found across the forum), i cobbled together a sheet to figure out attributes for npcs. It might not be perfect, but it works in a pinch. I have posted this on different threads but i'll make a summery of it here.

STR/AGL
An Npc's STR/AGL is based on what Damage Bonus Die they have.
None: Default to a 9.
D4: 13
D6: 17

(You can give the npc different STR/AGL if you want to. Consider, however, to do this primarly towards noteworthy npcs)
None: 9-12
D4: 13-16
D6: 17-18

CON.
An NPC's CON is equal to their maximum HP value, excluding any points gained from the ROBUST heroic ability.

WILL
An NPC'S WILL is equal to their maximum WP value, excluding any points gained from the FOCUSED heroic ability. If they do not have any WP listed, default to a value of 9.

What about INT/CHA?
Sense there is no mechanic that specifically requires INT/CHA, and npcs should not make rolls unless it directly affects the players (aka combat), it is currently not necessary to list these for now.

Why default to a 9?
Sense the Skill base chance is a 5, this would mean on a player character they have an attribute value of 9-12. I opted for 9 as it means it gives the player a slightly bigger chance of success, but it still gives mages a reason to opt to pay more WP when casting spells such as Ensnaring roots.
This is pretty much exactly what I did. For interest I tried to work out other attributes but agree they would rarely be necessary. I could see a need for INT for an opposed roll such as a riddle contest like Bilbo and Gollum in the Hobbit. (edit: although thinking about it, that may be better down as an opposed bluffing or performance check).

I also note, as discussed in the other thread, this doesn’t really work for ‘normal animals’. As there are no damage bonuses or WP can really only get CON (from HP). STR is difficult to determine but I would probably use HP in absence of any other way to calculate STR (assume STR and CON are probably about the same). AGL I based on lowest trained skill halved to get ‘untrained’ level if it would be above average. Everything else default to 9 based on default skill level.
 
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Short Fey
Topic Author
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat 03 Dec 2022, 14:45

Re: Quick sheet for NPC attributes

Wed 08 Feb 2023, 09:10

With the fact npcs now have a base chance skill level of 5 in untrained skills (and taking inspiration from points found across the forum), i cobbled together a sheet to figure out attributes for npcs. It might not be perfect, but it works in a pinch. I have posted this on different threads but i'll make a summery of it here.

STR/AGL
An Npc's STR/AGL is based on what Damage Bonus Die they have.
None: Default to a 9.
D4: 13
D6: 17

(You can give the npc different STR/AGL if you want to. Consider, however, to do this primarly towards noteworthy npcs)
None: 9-12
D4: 13-16
D6: 17-18

CON.
An NPC's CON is equal to their maximum HP value, excluding any points gained from the ROBUST heroic ability.

WILL
An NPC'S WILL is equal to their maximum WP value, excluding any points gained from the FOCUSED heroic ability. If they do not have any WP listed, default to a value of 9.

What about INT/CHA?
Sense there is no mechanic that specifically requires INT/CHA, and npcs should not make rolls unless it directly affects the players (aka combat), it is currently not necessary to list these for now.

Why default to a 9?
Sense the Skill base chance is a 5, this would mean on a player character they have an attribute value of 9-12. I opted for 9 as it means it gives the player a slightly bigger chance of success, but it still gives mages a reason to opt to pay more WP when casting spells such as Ensnaring roots.
This is pretty much exactly what I did. For interest I tried to work out other attributes but agree they would rarely be necessary. I could see a need for INT for an opposed roll such as a riddle contest like Bilbo and Gollum in the Hobbit. (edit: although thinking about it, that may be better down as an opposed bluffing or performance check).

I also note, as discussed in the other thread, this doesn’t really work for ‘normal animals’. As there are no damage bonuses or WP can really only get CON (from HP). STR is difficult to determine but I would probably use HP in absence of any other way to calculate STR (assume STR and CON are probably about the same). AGL I based on lowest trained skill halved to get ‘untrained’ level if it would be above average. Everything else default to 9 based on default skill level.
I'll still just say give some of the animals damage bonus dice and that's fixed.

D4: Wild Boar, Donkey.
D6: Horse, Moose, Bear
Beware the fey!
 
zcthu3
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed 29 May 2019, 10:34

Re: Quick sheet for NPC attributes

Wed 08 Feb 2023, 09:31

With the fact npcs now have a base chance skill level of 5 in untrained skills (and taking inspiration from points found across the forum), i cobbled together a sheet to figure out attributes for npcs. It might not be perfect, but it works in a pinch. I have posted this on different threads but i'll make a summery of it here.

STR/AGL
An Npc's STR/AGL is based on what Damage Bonus Die they have.
None: Default to a 9.
D4: 13
D6: 17

(You can give the npc different STR/AGL if you want to. Consider, however, to do this primarly towards noteworthy npcs)
None: 9-12
D4: 13-16
D6: 17-18

CON.
An NPC's CON is equal to their maximum HP value, excluding any points gained from the ROBUST heroic ability.

WILL
An NPC'S WILL is equal to their maximum WP value, excluding any points gained from the FOCUSED heroic ability. If they do not have any WP listed, default to a value of 9.

What about INT/CHA?
Sense there is no mechanic that specifically requires INT/CHA, and npcs should not make rolls unless it directly affects the players (aka combat), it is currently not necessary to list these for now.

Why default to a 9?
Sense the Skill base chance is a 5, this would mean on a player character they have an attribute value of 9-12. I opted for 9 as it means it gives the player a slightly bigger chance of success, but it still gives mages a reason to opt to pay more WP when casting spells such as Ensnaring roots.
This is pretty much exactly what I did. For interest I tried to work out other attributes but agree they would rarely be necessary. I could see a need for INT for an opposed roll such as a riddle contest like Bilbo and Gollum in the Hobbit. (edit: although thinking about it, that may be better down as an opposed bluffing or performance check).

I also note, as discussed in the other thread, this doesn’t really work for ‘normal animals’. As there are no damage bonuses or WP can really only get CON (from HP). STR is difficult to determine but I would probably use HP in absence of any other way to calculate STR (assume STR and CON are probably about the same). AGL I based on lowest trained skill halved to get ‘untrained’ level if it would be above average. Everything else default to 9 based on default skill level.
I'll still just say give some of the animals damage bonus dice and that's fixed.

D4: Wild Boar, Donkey.
D6: Horse, Moose, Bear
That’s not just plugging a hole in the rules though - the issue that needs to be solved is what do you roll when you need an attribute and it isn’t listed? My suggestion uses the stat blocks as written to plug that gap. What you’re suggesting changes those creatures to add something extra which isn’t currently there and which has flow on implications - eg a bear now inflicts 2d8+1d6 damage. That has far greater implications for gameplay.
 
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Short Fey
Topic Author
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat 03 Dec 2022, 14:45

Re: Quick sheet for NPC attributes

Wed 08 Feb 2023, 10:12



This is pretty much exactly what I did. For interest I tried to work out other attributes but agree they would rarely be necessary. I could see a need for INT for an opposed roll such as a riddle contest like Bilbo and Gollum in the Hobbit. (edit: although thinking about it, that may be better down as an opposed bluffing or performance check).

I also note, as discussed in the other thread, this doesn’t really work for ‘normal animals’. As there are no damage bonuses or WP can really only get CON (from HP). STR is difficult to determine but I would probably use HP in absence of any other way to calculate STR (assume STR and CON are probably about the same). AGL I based on lowest trained skill halved to get ‘untrained’ level if it would be above average. Everything else default to 9 based on default skill level.
I'll still just say give some of the animals damage bonus dice and that's fixed.

D4: Wild Boar, Donkey.
D6: Horse, Moose, Bear
That’s not just plugging a hole in the rules though - the issue that needs to be solved is what do you roll when you need an attribute and it isn’t listed? My suggestion uses the stat blocks as written to plug that gap. What you’re suggesting changes those creatures to add something extra which isn’t currently there and which has flow on implications - eg a bear now inflicts 2d8+1d6 damage. That has far greater implications for gameplay.
The issue is that the game is designed with 18 as the cap. Sense you only roll a d20 with no modifiers it means that regardless how good you are, you always have a 10% chance of failure. Even if you say "they can have over 18, but still fail on 19-20" it makes the base rule 18 is the cap inconsistent. Npcs follow in principle the same rules as players so allowing "special cases" makes it strange. By that logic, any npc who don't have a damage bonus die would have str equal to their hp, even if logically it makes no sense. like say a frail old scholar who's hp happens to be 17. And likewise it would give them bonuses that the players could never get which would feel unfair.

And for the bear, bears are highly dangerous animals who can easily kill a human. So yes i think it makes sense that they could deal a lot of damage. But unlike a monster who always hit, bears have a chance to miss, they are soliitary animals so the party will likely outnumber it and they are not necessarily agressive so the players could drive it off without resorting to violence.
Beware the fey!
 
zcthu3
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed 29 May 2019, 10:34

Re: Quick sheet for NPC attributes

Wed 08 Feb 2023, 11:34



I'll still just say give some of the animals damage bonus dice and that's fixed.

D4: Wild Boar, Donkey.
D6: Horse, Moose, Bear
That’s not just plugging a hole in the rules though - the issue that needs to be solved is what do you roll when you need an attribute and it isn’t listed? My suggestion uses the stat blocks as written to plug that gap. What you’re suggesting changes those creatures to add something extra which isn’t currently there and which has flow on implications - eg a bear now inflicts 2d8+1d6 damage. That has far greater implications for gameplay.
The issue is that the game is designed with 18 as the cap. Sense you only roll a d20 with no modifiers it means that regardless how good you are, you always have a 10% chance of failure. Even if you say "they can have over 18, but still fail on 19-20" it makes the base rule 18 is the cap inconsistent. Npcs follow in principle the same rules as players so allowing "special cases" makes it strange. By that logic, any npc who don't have a damage bonus die would have str equal to their hp, even if logically it makes no sense. like say a frail old scholar who's hp happens to be 17. And likewise it would give them bonuses that the players could never get which would feel unfair.

And for the bear, bears are highly dangerous animals who can easily kill a human. So yes i think it makes sense that they could deal a lot of damage. But unlike a monster who always hit, bears have a chance to miss, they are soliitary animals so the party will likely outnumber it and they are not necessarily agressive so the players could drive it off without resorting to violence.
I am only suggesting using CON for STR for animals - I agree that for normal NPCs you would use the damage bonus - so not sure what the frail old scholar has to do with anything in this particular discussion. Animals (as they stand) don’t have damage bonuses - high damage due to STR (and claws, teeth etc) is already factored into their damage. I would suggest that the claws on a bear aren’t the equivalent of a battle axe until after you include their strength. If a PC was to use ‘bear claws’ as a weapon, it’s probably the equivalent of a knife (D8) plus a damage modifier.

On that basis another simple alternative is required if you want to just read off the table in the book; you are suggesting adding damage bonuses on top of a damage code that already accounts for the creatures STR and size. Furthermore, it isn’t using the information available in the beta to plug a gap, it requires adding a whole new thing to the creatures listed. Using HP = CON and STR only results in an attribute greater than 18 for one animal - the bear. The next highest is the Moose with an 18, so it’s not like my suggestion results in everything breaching your position that ‘the system is designed with 18 as the cap’ - it’s literally just one animal which, if you really want, you could just cap at 18 with no need to add a damage bonus (having said that, I also posted a suggestion on the other thread on how you can deal with attributes higher than 18 - they still fail on 19-20 but provide boons on rolls). Ultimately do what you want, but my point is that you don’t need to add a DB to get numbers that make sense for the animals in question. Generally using HP for STR and CON means you can just read the existing table for a number to roll against and, except for the bear, they are all in the 4-18 range and seems about right as a rule of thumb for most of the animals.
 
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Short Fey
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Re: Quick sheet for NPC attributes

Wed 08 Feb 2023, 11:55

It's pretty clear we have different oppinions so instead i'll offer an alternative suggestion.

What if their STR is based on the maximum value of damage on their attack?

That would make the bears STR a 16, which is within the 18 cap, and gives it more Str than an average person.
Beware the fey!
 
zcthu3
Posts: 121
Joined: Wed 29 May 2019, 10:34

Re: Quick sheet for NPC attributes

Wed 08 Feb 2023, 12:25

It's pretty clear we have different oppinions so instead i'll offer an alternative suggestion.

What if their STR is based on the maximum value of damage on their attack?

That would make the bears STR a 16, which is within the 18 cap, and gives it more Str than an average person.
That’s another option but I think it severely underestimates the relative STR of some animals vs. PCs. As an example, Pendragon uses the same basic system as Dragonbane (d20 roll under skill level; starting PC attributes typically between 3 - 18, HP on the same scale etc) but gives bears a STR of 25, dogs one of 12, and a donkey one of 20. It recognises that some creatures are just stronger, tougher etc. To me, Dragonbane should do the same and I think it can without needing much other than guidance on how to address those situations.

Ultimately, I think we just don’t agree on the premise that everything needs to be captured within the 3-18 scale of PCs (and that’s OK). You think it does, but IMO some things just don’t fit in that range. I would resolve the situation of higher than human(oid) attributes by using the normal failure on a 19-20 but providing creatures with an attribute higher than 18 a boon (or multiple boons for really high strength creatures like dragons). Your preference to have all attributes within the 3-18 range just doesn’t make sense to me because it forces all creatures into the narrow band of ‘humanoid’ attributes even when it doesn’t make sense. It is also, IMO, unnecessary given there are means within the system to deal with those situations - you just need to know when to apply them ie. when does the STR of a creature or monster just completely outclass what a human, elf etc. is capable of, and therefore there is no chance of success, or at least the creature should get a boon etc.

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