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Kaybe
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Let's talk Ability Balance

Thu 01 Dec 2022, 06:39

Before continuing, I'm stating for the record that I am really digging this game so far overall. This is not a critique of the game as a whole, but just concerns over the fine tuning and costs for different abilities. No, I'm not in a grumpy mood ;)

I'm reading the beta PDF. I think some significant additional playtesting may be needed on some abilities and heroics as there are very clear winners and losers in the mix here. I think many of these can be resolved via rules clarifications or adjustments to willpower cost.

One of the ones I see come up often are the 3 WP ones that say they add D8 damage on an attack. If this is after the attack hits but before damage is rolled, it could be decent. If this is before the attack is rolled, then 3 WP is just plain too much. An example of one of the good ones is the Heroic ability Assassin that says straight out that the ability is activated after the roll to hit is completed (and compliments the thief ability crazy well). On the other hand, Dragonslayer says no such thing yet also costs 3 WP for the same additional damage to monsters.

Iron Fist is flat out amazing for its cost. So is Berserker (although you have to use this intelligently or your PC will get turned into paste, lol).

Master Spellcaster is potentially CRAZY strong, although wording on it might be unclear. Is it 2 WP + 2 more on the second spell for a total of 4? Or just 2 WP on the second spell? If it's only 2 WP for the second spell, this heroic ability is absolutely mandatory for any mage. Nothing else comes close for that class.

In fact, let's really amp up the magic ante by adding Jack of All Trades (Mage) to the list of crazy strong and likely broken heroic abilities. Want to be good at your profession AND roast people with magic? Now you can after only a single session! Note that the Mage ability specifically states you become trained in a magic skill. Regardless of whether your base profession has it or not.

Quick Reflexes seems quite good since you essentially can always attack and be guaranteed the ability to dodge or parry. That being said, wording says you can dodge one extra time. Does this mean you can only use if you already dodged once that round? If so, it's way less attractive.

Evasive is REALLY bad. 3 WP to redirect an attack to an ally next to that monster? How about no? Aside from the excessive WP for being antisocial, Knight has a similar ability that costs a more palatable 2 WP and is much more team friendly as they are also the tankiest. Now if Evasive could be redirected to *anyone*, including enemies, then this would be really good (and fun). Lightning Fast is also very bad since you spend 3 WP just to draw another initiative card which can be worse. For the cost, it should be draw two, pick one. Throwing Arm costs 3 WP to throw a melee weapon that gives no extra damage and still requires an attack roll ... and lands at the target's feet? No one will take this ever.

What about you? Any kin, class, or heroic abilities that seem like they need a balance pass in your opinion?
Last edited by Kaybe on Thu 01 Dec 2022, 16:58, edited 1 time in total.
 
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jasales
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Re: Let's talk Ability Balance

Thu 01 Dec 2022, 16:14

I agree with about everything you noted above. I too am really digging this game but it needs several more months of play testing.

Over all the game has a nice permissive feel and fun action economy. The rules-lite take is almost consistent but some of it feels like some Forbidden Lands mechanics have been tacked on and merely tweaked for this game. The game is good but it could be great with some more baking time.
 
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Kaybe
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Re: Let's talk Ability Balance

Fri 02 Dec 2022, 13:38

Addendum: I now sincerely believe that Jack of All Trades, as currently written in the PDF, absolutely needs to go.
One of the core ideas put forward by the Quickstart, as well as countless interviews, is that profession abilities are unique to that profession and that no one else would have them. JOAT automatically ensures this will never be the case. And since the first heroic comes right away, this means that for most people, it will be the automatic first choice. Starting professions will be picked based not on the profession identity (profession ability), but by starting trained skills and gear.

I recommend changing JOAT to instead be a heroic you pick for extra trained skills. Two more trained skills for each pick of JOAT seems fair at first glance.

If the idea of multiclassing sounds good, I recommend adding something new where you can learn a very rudimentary version of those abilities so they don't compete with the abilities used by members of that profession. For example, maybe the Mage ability as a secondary profession will only allow you to memorize a single spell at a time instead of the number memorized by a true Mage.
 
Maedryc
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Re: Let's talk Ability Balance

Fri 02 Dec 2022, 14:11

Quick Reflexes seems quite good since you essentially can always attack and be guaranteed the ability to dodge or parry. That being said, wording says you can dodge one extra time. Does this mean you can only use if you already dodged once that round? If so, it's way less attractive.
I believe you're reading the ability wrong. It states you can dodge an extra time "in combat", not "each round".
The way I read it, you still have to pay the 3 WP to activate it.

So it's not like you take the ability and now you can attack and dodge for free each round; you take the ability, then you can spend 3 WP to dodge (once) even if you've used up your action already.
The dodge is "free" only because it does not cost an action, but it still costs 3 WP to use.
So, decent, but not that good, IMHO.

Edit: honestly, reading most heroic abilities, it seems to me that advancement will end up falling quite.. flat? After the first few sessions.
There's really nothing that screams "awesome!" to me, among the heroic abilities. It's all, mostly, serviceable stuff.
Also, the lack of prerequisites, the fact that the list isn't that long means that most characters will probably end up taking the same stuff, unless they're going for a very specific concept.
Furthermore, since Heroic Abilities aren't tiered, you're probabily going to take what you want first and then grab whatever's left when you level up.
Getting your 3rd or 4th one and getting to choose the stuff you didn't really care for five sessions ago doesn't seem that exciting to me, frankly.
Last edited by Maedryc on Fri 02 Dec 2022, 14:48, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Let's talk Ability Balance

Fri 02 Dec 2022, 14:24

Quick Reflexes seems quite good since you essentially can always attack and be guaranteed the ability to dodge or parry. That being said, wording says you can dodge one extra time. Does this mean you can only use if you already dodged once that round? If so, it's way less attractive.
I believe you're reading the ability wrong. It states you can dodge an extra time "in combat", not "each round".
The way I read it, you still have to pay the 3 WP to activate it.

So it's not like you take the ability and now you can attack and dodge for free each round; you take the ability, then you can spend 3 WP to dodge (once) even if you've used up your action already.
The dodge is "free" only because it does not cost an action, but it still costs 3 WP to use.
So, decent, but not that good, IMHO.
Yup. The ability simply allows you to dodge without it counts as an action for the price of 3 WP, you can do it more than once, as long as you pay 3 WP each time you want to do this 'free' dodge (free as it doesn't counts as an action).
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Maedryc
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Re: Let's talk Ability Balance

Fri 02 Dec 2022, 14:50

Quick Reflexes seems quite good since you essentially can always attack and be guaranteed the ability to dodge or parry. That being said, wording says you can dodge one extra time. Does this mean you can only use if you already dodged once that round? If so, it's way less attractive.
I believe you're reading the ability wrong. It states you can dodge an extra time "in combat", not "each round".
The way I read it, you still have to pay the 3 WP to activate it.

So it's not like you take the ability and now you can attack and dodge for free each round; you take the ability, then you can spend 3 WP to dodge (once) even if you've used up your action already.
The dodge is "free" only because it does not cost an action, but it still costs 3 WP to use.
So, decent, but not that good, IMHO.
Yup. The ability simply allows you to dodge without it counts as an action for the price of 3 WP, you can do it more than once, as long as you pay 3 WP each time you want to do this 'free' dodge (free as it doesn't counts as an action).
Yeah, so a starting character gets 5-6 extra dodges/day, assuming he doesn't have anything else eating up WP.
 
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Kaybe
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Re: Let's talk Ability Balance

Tue 06 Dec 2022, 04:53

Quick Reflexes seems quite good since you essentially can always attack and be guaranteed the ability to dodge or parry. That being said, wording says you can dodge one extra time. Does this mean you can only use if you already dodged once that round? If so, it's way less attractive.
I believe you're reading the ability wrong. It states you can dodge an extra time "in combat", not "each round".
The way I read it, you still have to pay the 3 WP to activate it.

So it's not like you take the ability and now you can attack and dodge for free each round; you take the ability, then you can spend 3 WP to dodge (once) even if you've used up your action already.
The dodge is "free" only because it does not cost an action, but it still costs 3 WP to use.
So, decent, but not that good, IMHO.
Yup. The ability simply allows you to dodge without it counts as an action for the price of 3 WP, you can do it more than once, as long as you pay 3 WP each time you want to do this 'free' dodge (free as it doesn't counts as an action).
That is how I read it. Still, a 3 WP "oh sh*t" ability is very useful since you can more comfortably go on the offensive without worry if you're first in the initiative order. Better to lose 3 WP than be dead.
 
JohnWithAgun
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Re: Let's talk Ability Balance

Wed 07 Dec 2022, 15:11

Dual weapons (page 38)

First off i really like the talent, but it seems very mandatory for a melee build, as its one of the few ways you can increase your damage output.
The only downside is the you a shield, but that can be offset with another heroic ability (deflect arrow p:38), or simple having a shield at hand.... or simply dodging, your mobility is a very prime choice for advancement rolls.
... actually the shield is on the weapon table and have a damage value so i guess this doubles as a shield bash in a way? so also very useful for a tanky character.

I think a two handed heroic ability that would make some kinda boost to 2-handed weapon might go along way here.(while also giving the marksman a much need heroic ability)
Could be something like spending X willpower to re-roll damage maybe.

as others have mentioned lighting fast also seem very mandatory, again a way for a melee character to convert will power into damage (by simply attacking and using it just in case)
 
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Short Fey
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Re: Let's talk Ability Balance

Wed 07 Dec 2022, 20:43

Evasive is REALLY bad. 3 WP to redirect an attack to an ally next to that monster? How about no? Aside from the excessive WP for being antisocial, Knight has a similar ability that costs a more palatable 2 WP and is much more team friendly as they are also the tankiest. Now if Evasive could be redirected to *anyone*, including enemies, then this would be really good (and fun).
While i can agree it might do with a bit of tinkering (Making it hit an adjacent enemy sounds a lot of fun), i don't think it is that bad. First off, it is not guaranteed that you have a knight in your party, or anyone who has picked up the protector ability. The idea of it i think is that you redirect it onto an heavily armoured character who can take the hit. Having done a test run, a character in plate armour could quite often tank a hit without taking damage. So you could make a calculated risk, redirect the attack to your tank, let them absorb the damage, and you'll personally be fine. And sense you're the one redirecting it, the tank can do his job without having to spend his own WP which they might wanna use for something else.
However the usefulness would be depending on your party comp and equipment, so i'd say that it is not a first hand choice. I'd say that it might be more interesting if it had possibly a slightly lower WP cost as is, or adding some additional effect such as the "can make it target an enemy next to the attacker".
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JohnWithAgun
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Re: Let's talk Ability Balance

Thu 08 Dec 2022, 09:59

Evasive is REALLY bad. 3 WP to redirect an attack to an ally next to that monster? How about no? Aside from the excessive WP for being antisocial, Knight has a similar ability that costs a more palatable 2 WP and is much more team friendly as they are also the tankiest. Now if Evasive could be redirected to *anyone*, including enemies, then this would be really good (and fun).
While i can agree it might do with a bit of tinkering (Making it hit an adjacent enemy sounds a lot of fun), i don't think it is that bad. First off, it is not guaranteed that you have a knight in your party, or anyone who has picked up the protector ability. The idea of it i think is that you redirect it onto an heavily armoured character who can take the hit. Having done a test run, a character in plate armour could quite often tank a hit without taking damage. So you could make a calculated risk, redirect the attack to your tank, let them absorb the damage, and you'll personally be fine. And sense you're the one redirecting it, the tank can do his job without having to spend his own WP which they might wanna use for something else.
However the usefulness would be depending on your party comp and equipment, so i'd say that it is not a first hand choice. I'd say that it might be more interesting if it had possibly a slightly lower WP cost as is, or adding some additional effect such as the "can make it target an enemy next to the attacker".
Up the willpower point and rename it "deadly deflection" if you make the parry the attack is deflected to a nearby enemy ?

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