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DarianVarVicovaro
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu 01 Dec 2022, 21:36

Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Fri 02 Dec 2022, 02:12

HEROIC ABILITIES should have levels like in FBL or Symbaroum. If they won them every 5 sessions, very soon they would end up having all of them in a fairly long campaign. Maybe increase the number or have them bought with Advancement Mark increases?
My group averages 40 or more sessions a year. That is nine Heroic Abilities after a year. I feel like characters would get somewhat unwieldy at that point. Gaining Heroic Abilities should slow over time somehow, just like skill advancement does (due to the roll over requirement).
I agree, they could do as in The one ring 2e. The characters will be withdrawn and leaving space for the new ones and there is a limit, along with a progressive increase in price
 
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LucaBlackDragon
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri 02 Dec 2022, 07:12

Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Fri 02 Dec 2022, 07:23

P. 35, opposed rolls
"If both of you succeed with your rolls, your action succeeds if the result of your roll is lower than or equal to your opponent’s result. If the opponent’s result is lower than yours, you fail."
Should this not be the margin of success? As written, someone (A) with a skill level of (say) 12, actively opposing someone (B) with skill level 4 will lose the active contest in 75% of the cases that both succeed. An example would be "A rolls 7, a success; B rolls 3, a success; 3 is less than 7, B wins the context"
Proposal:
Success Rate (SR) = Skill Level - roll

To succeed, your SR must be greater than or equal to 0.
In an opposed roll, if the opponent succeeds too, you win if your SR is greater than or equal to your opponent's SR.

In the example,
A rolls a 7, so SR=12-7=5
B rolls a 3, so SR=4-3=1
therefore A wins.

NB:
This gives even more advantage to characters with a high Skill Level (who are already more likely to succeed in rolling below their Skill Level) so I don't know if it's balanced.
I actually like the rules the way they are written, but I can understand some people might not, so...
Maybe it could be an optional rule?
 
Banquo
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed 31 Aug 2022, 10:35

Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Sat 03 Dec 2022, 10:34

Some suggestions/ ideas around a couple of heroic feats:
Evasive: I think this would be good if it also included NPCs as well as player characters. So if a character is being attacked by 2 enemy NPCs (such as goblins) they could activate the ability and force one of the goblins to attack the other (the sort of move seen in many swashbuckling fights where the hero dodges a blow that then hits another attacker!)
Grave Robber and Treasure Hunter: could these be combined into a single ability, something like Wayfinder (to match pathfinder), still 3WP to activate and at a crossroads allows you to ask a single “which way to…?” question of the GM? Such as “which way to the greatest danger?” or “…greatest treasure?” or “…the captured prince?” or “…the best tavern?”
 
Ralph
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue 11 Aug 2020, 13:09

Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Sat 03 Dec 2022, 15:12

I hope this is the right place for this.
In the recent Kickstarter update about skills you suggested that the increase in number of skills could lead to moving the professional abilities into the pool of heroic abilities.
Please don’t do this.
Choosing a profession is largely directed by the ability you get as part of that profession. It would be a shame to lose that aspect of the profession that gives it much of the flavour.
Further, characters meeting an NPC having a certain profession will understand a little of what that NPC can do.
I think profession abilities add more to the game than just another ability.
 
torus
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 11:47

Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Sat 03 Dec 2022, 15:17

I very much agree with the proposal to increase the number of skills. The current set is too limited, which restricts PC individuality and also leads to some skills being used constantly. Every PC in the party should have at least one skill that no-one else has.
 
Bokmumrik
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat 03 Dec 2022, 14:56

Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Sat 03 Dec 2022, 15:21

Regarding the new changes to heroic abilities and skills.

I think the changes proposed as excellent ideas, since the skills at the moment feel bit too streamlined, almost arbitrary.

You plan to add nine new skills, upping it to 25.

The ones I immediately feel like adding include some changes to the skills that used to be heroic abilities.

Firstly I'd scrap or rework People Reader and change it into the Insight skill (similar to earlier FL-games) and make it CHA-based to increase CHA's usefulness. I found People Reader a bit amusing, since, even to a fellow Scandi like me, being able to read people does not strike me particularly as a heroic ability.

I'd also propose scrapping Artisan or changing as a talent of the type it is now and just write up a general Craft/Repair skill with some Heroic Abilities tied into it, I don't think an artisan should be the only folks capable of repairing and making stuff.

Adding Ride would make sense, especially as the Knight is a class so traditionally associated with mounted combat that it feels like an omission. Another skill that could, and possibly should be, CHA-based.

Since Mobility exists I think it is only logical a similar skill should exist for strength - likely Athletics. I understand the wish to not overload Strength with useful skills as it is already such a powerful ability, but if general feats of agility are to be constricted by a skill, why shouldn't feats of athleticism also have a similar skill?

I'd also like to see a skill representing the abilities of a sailor, either Seacraft or Sailing would make sense, as a supplement to the Mariner class.

Some others I think may be a good are: A social skill for inspiration and performance, Research skills for the scholars and mages among us, social information gathering skills (Gossip or Investigation) and Skills to differentiate Lore and social skills in general a bit more.

I was also thinking over the benefits of adding a navigation skill in addition to Bushcraft.

All that said - I propose something a bit like this: Insight/Empathy (CHA) , Athletics (STR), Craft (Int), Evaluate (Int), Seacraft/Sailing (Int), Ride (CHA), Performance/Inspire (CHA), Research (INT), Investigate/Gossip (INT OR CHA depending on flavour) and Navigation (INT).

Some examples of how this might look via looking at the some professions:

Current Knight: Blunt Weapons, Lore, Persuasion, Spears, Swords
Revised Knight: Athletics, Blunt Weapons, Lore, Ride, Inspire, Spears, Swords

Current Merchant: Awareness, Knives, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, Spot Hidden.
Revised Merchant: Awareness, Knives, Persuasion, Insight, Sleight of Hand, Spot Hidden, Navigation.
Last edited by Bokmumrik on Sat 03 Dec 2022, 22:25, edited 2 times in total.
 
Jay Button
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu 01 Dec 2022, 16:27

Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Sat 03 Dec 2022, 15:59

I believe a small number of skills are best for the reasons listed in Update #20, most specifically, "Another reason for having few skills is that because the more skills there are in the game, the more skills will there be that the player characters don't have. This means having lots of skills in a game will generally make the characters less competent. And we don't want that."

Having lots of skills feels like a step backwards in game design, but if it is necessary to appease long time players of the game, I would try to keep the list as short as possible. Also, I noticed that Charisma has only one associated skill (Persuasion), whereas Strength, Agility, and Intelligence have five each. Perhaps more Charisma based skills could be added to keep Persuasion from being the one Skill everyone chooses. Some additional Charisma skills could be Carousing, Deception, Haggling, High Society, Insight, Intimidation, Seduction, or Underworld Contacts.
Last edited by Jay Button on Sat 03 Dec 2022, 16:20, edited 1 time in total.
 
sunherd
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat 03 Dec 2022, 16:04

Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Sat 03 Dec 2022, 16:16

In the BETA I was a bit unsure how to separate good riders from bad riders, if the campaign asks to differentiate such characters. I would maybe have gone with Mobility, but that's also climbing and other stuff, so it felt a bit funny that all mounted knights would be also very skilled in that stuff. I was also thinking that maybe everyone uses Mobility for riding, but there could be a Heroic Ability to not have a bane for handling a horse in a battle.

After reading your ponderings about an update to the rules I'm not sure if I would be asking for a separate Riding (or combined with Animal Handling or something..) skill. I mean, I could make it a secondary skill too, when the campaign needs that. Riding is a pretty common theme, though, so maybe any official suggestion could be addressed in the book.
 
sandor7
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue 06 Jul 2021, 04:58

Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Sat 03 Dec 2022, 16:40

let me just say how excited i am about the latest kickstarter updated, not only for the content it presents, but mostly because it shows that you are listening to backer feedback and are actually making adjustments to give use the game we'd like to see.

i think expanding the skill list is a good idea for a lot of the reasons listed above, and also because i feel it increases the longevity and playability of the characters. i love the idea that the party maybe doesnt have every skillset covered right from the outset; i think this would lead to some very interesting encounters.

that being said, i am not convinced that changing profession abilities to heroic abilities is the right move. as pointed out by several posts above, it seems it makes professions useless. it devalues the time and training the character would have had to invest in their defining feature. i much prefer the idea of having the one special thing my character can do that few others can do. in fact, i would even propose expanding the profession ability list to give each profession a choice of their defining ability similar to how Forbidden lands does, but thats a conversation for another day.

my biggest gripe with this particular change is that everyone would now be able to learn magic, which by default will make magic more mundane.

in my opinion, you guys already have the mechanism by which you can have your cake and eat it too: just make a sidebar with an optional rule that tells us how to convert profession abilities to heroic abilities.
 
Banquo
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed 31 Aug 2022, 10:35

Re: Dragonbane BETA Rulebook Feedback - Chapter 3 Skills

Sat 03 Dec 2022, 16:45

I can see some additional skills could be included: personally I agree with previous comments that some “travel” based skills would be a good addition, so sailing and horsemanship/ riding (I’ve always liked horsemanship as a skill name from Pendragon, but riding covers other beasts as well). Some sort of repair/ craft skill allowing recovery of damaged items during a rest might also be useful (so not always having to have an artisan around. Perhaps repair let’s use of the item with a bane, but and artisan can fix it fully to normal use?). A few extra Cha skills, such as performing and some sort of disguise/ deception skill could also be an idea.
I’m half sold on moving professional abilities to heroic abilities but I also like the “niche” they provide. So was wondering if they could have prerequisites that you need to be from a specific profession to access them, and delete Jack of all trades, but allow gaining a new profession as a heroic ability - so you need to gain the new profession (perhaps with some skill bonuses to make it worthwhile) but can’t get the profession locked ability until you reach another experience point after more sessions.
Interested to see other people’s thoughts and ideas…
Last edited by Banquo on Sat 03 Dec 2022, 16:50, edited 1 time in total.
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