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ThrorII
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Fatigue and Journey's in 2e

Tue 29 Nov 2022, 00:03

I've played 1e (and the 2014 1.5e version) for a while now. I'm reading and studying the 2e rules.

I have a concern about the new Journey rules and Fatigue gain.

As I understand it, a journey event occurs roughly every 3-4 days (depending on the Travel roll of the guide). Each event is going to earn characters 1-2 Fatigue on average (but leaning more towards 2). So, on a 120 mile Journey (6 days), each member of the company will have accrued an average of 1-4 Fatigue (averaging closer to 3-4). Those Fatigue points can be 'rolled off' with a Travel roll: 1 point on a success and +1 extra point for each success tengwar.

This is a LOT more Fatigue than in the earlier edition. Nearly twice as much.

A recap of 1st and 1.5e: Every 6 days (in summer; 4-5 days in Autumn or Spring) you had a Travel roll. A failure meant gaining 2 Fatigue (3 in Winter or Autumn). A success meant NO Fatigue for that roll. Even assuming you failed 50% of your Travel rolls back then, you only gained 2 Fatigue in the abovementioned 120 mile trek.

It gets worse if you look at the 1e trip from Dale to Beorn's House. 400 miles. In 1e it was 28 days and 5 Travel tests in summer (6 in spring). Even failing 50% of your Travel tests would only net you 5 or 6 Fatigue. In 2e (assuming the hills of the Grey Mountain Narrows are Hard terrain) it is 24 days and 7-8 Travel tests. Those tests in 2e will net you 14-16 Fatigue points, which you will only probably be able to shave off 1-2 on foot.

So, 5 Fatigue vs. 12-13......

Even if you treat the Narrows as Normal terrain, taking only 20 days, you're still looking at 5-6 Travel tests, and probably 10-12 Fatigue points. Shave off 1-2 if on foot with a good travel roll, so 8-10 points.

Again 5 Fatigue vs. 8-10.

Has this been noticed by old players, and how much has it affected your game?
 
Dunheved
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Re: Fatigue and Journey's in 2e

Tue 29 Nov 2022, 10:06

Well, one comparison, using the printed maps for each version, would be the journey in 1e and in 2e from the crossroads west of Bree to the Last Bridge. 21 hexes in 1e Rivendell supplement: 11 hexes in 2e Core book. Make both journeys off road as Frodo and Strider had to do. But both in Summer. No horses or ponies.

In 1e: 4hex free/easy 8hex border/daunting 9hex wild/severe
Using p156 1e Core Rules: easy x1, daunting x5, severe x3 will give an equivalent mileage of
(4×1) + (8 ×5) + (9×3) = 71 hexes or 710 miles.
Using p158 1e Core: At 20 miles equivalent per day this is 35.5 or 36 days continuous travel. Which yields 6 Fatigue tests at TN = 14 unless the LM chooses to apply different TN for free/border/daunting *.
In Summer each failed roll by a player is a 2 Fatigue penalty. So from 0 to 12 Fatigue.

In 2e:
There are eleven hexes to move through, and in Summer the least distance travelled between Events is 2 hexes (2e page 110). Adding 1 event for the Midgewater Marshes hex, this gives a Maximum of 5 + 1 Events in Summer - as long as they are all failed. Taking an arithmetic mean for the Fatigue gained gives close to 10 Fatigue (page 112 table). Of course the Target of each Travel Event may have other consequences.
Passing the Travel test each time would be a total of 4 + 1 Events (one for the marshes). Tengwars would realistically reduce this by one or two Events. A good chance of around 4 to 6 Fatigue. Maybe more likely if spending hope on an Inspired Guide's Marching test and pulling several tengwars.

The travel time is 11 days for 11 hexes plus 1 day for the marshes plus as many days as there are hexes remaining that are considered hills or forests. Since our party is off roading, let's make all the remaining hexes like that. Total time 22 days. There is as much chance of increasing the number of days as decreasing the number of days travelling in the Journey Events Table (p112).

So, on this 2e journey you probably get a more limited Range of results for Fatigue gained (4 to 10 Fatigue) than with 1e which could vary a lot instead (0 to 12 Fatigue). So, I am not sure that the difference between 1e and 2e in Fatigue is so very much in typical play. An actual game has too much variation to be sure that 2e is twice as fatiguing as 1e.
But if my TIMING calculations are OK, then 36 days in 1e is different from 22 days (or less!) using 2e.


*is it any wonder 2e Travel is preferred!
Last edited by Dunheved on Thu 01 Dec 2022, 17:51, edited 1 time in total.
 
Dunheved
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Re: Fatigue and Journey's in 2e

Tue 29 Nov 2022, 10:21

And as an afterthought, if my TIMING calculations are correct, then clearly Professor Tolkien was using TOR 1e Travel Rules for the Hobbit in 1937, so they took months to get to Rivendell: then when he got the Free League version TOR 2e in 1954 he used the newer Travel Rules and Strider made the journey much quicker!
Last edited by Dunheved on Thu 01 Dec 2022, 17:50, edited 1 time in total.
 
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ThrorII
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Re: Fatigue and Journey's in 2e

Wed 30 Nov 2022, 00:57

Well, one comparison, using the printed maps for each version, would be the journey in 1e and in 2e from the crossroads west of Bree to the Last Bridge. 21 hexes in 1e Rivendell supplement: 11 hexes in 2e Core book. Make both journeys off road as Frodo and Strider had to do. But both in Summer. No horses or ponies.

In 1e: 4hex free/easy 8hex border/daunting 9hex wild/severe
Using p156 1e Core Rules: easy x1, daunting x5, severe x3 will give an equivalent mileage of
(4×1) + (8 ×5) + (9×3) = 71 hexes or 710 miles.
Using p158 1e Core: At 20 miles equivalent per day this is 35.5 or 36 days continuous travel. Which yields 6 Fatigue tests at TN = 14 unless the LM chooses to apply different TN for free/border/daunting *.
In Summer each failed roll by a player is a 2 Fatigue penalty. So from 0 to 12 Fatigue.

In 2e:
There are eleven hexes to move through, and in Summer the least distance travelled between Events is 2 hexes (2e page 110). Adding 1 event for the Midgewater Marshes hex, this gives a Maximum of 5 + 1 Events in Summer - as long as they are all failed. Taking an arithmetic mean for the Fatigue gained gives close to 10 Fatigue (page 112 table). Of course the Target of each Travel Event may have other consequences.
Passing the Travel test each time would be a total of 4 + 1 Events (one for the marshes). Tengwars would realistically reduce this by one or two Events. A good chance of around 4 to 6 Fatigue. Maybe more likely if spending hope on an Inspired Guide's Marching test and pulling several tengwars.

The travel time is 11 days for 11 hexes plus 1 day for the marshes plus as many days as there are hexes remaining that are considered hills or forests. Since our party is off roading, let's make all the remaining hexes like that. Total time 22 days. There is as much chance of increasing the number of days as decreasing the number of days travelling in the Journey Events Table (p112).

So on this 2e journey you probably get a more limited Range of results for Fatigue gained (4 to 10 Fatigue) than with 1e which could vary a lot instead(0 to 12 Fatigue). So I am not sure that the difference between 1e and 2e in Fatigue is so very much in typical play. An actual game has too much variation to be sure that 2e is twice as fatiguing as 1e.
But if my TIMING calculations are OK, then 36 days in 1e is different from 22 days (or less!) using 2e.


*is it any wonder 2e Travel is preferred!
If it is 22 days, plus one extra event in the Marshes, isn't that likely 6 events? Assuming an average of 4 days per event, so 5 events plus 1 extra for the Midgewater?

So in 2e, those 6 events will (on average) give you 12 Fatigue. Since you are still traveling to Rivendell, you're not rolling Travel to lessen them yet. In 1e, even if you failed 50% of your Travel rolls, you're only looking at 6 Fatigue.

Or am I missing something??
 
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ThrorII
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Re: Fatigue and Journey's in 2e

Wed 30 Nov 2022, 01:15

Well, one comparison, using the printed maps for each version, would be the journey in 1e and in 2e from the crossroads west of Bree to the Last Bridge. 21 hexes in 1e Rivendell supplement: 11 hexes in 2e Core book. Make both journeys off road as Frodo and Strider had to do. But both in Summer. No horses or ponies.

In 1e: 4hex free/easy 8hex border/daunting 9hex wild/severe
Using p156 1e Core Rules: easy x1, daunting x5, severe x3 will give an equivalent mileage of
(4×1) + (8 ×5) + (9×3) = 71 hexes or 710 miles.
Using p158 1e Core: At 20 miles equivalent per day this is 35.5 or 36 days continuous travel. Which yields 6 Fatigue tests at TN = 14 unless the LM chooses to apply different TN for free/border/daunting *.
In Summer each failed roll by a player is a 2 Fatigue penalty. So from 0 to 12 Fatigue.

In 2e:
There are eleven hexes to move through, and in Summer the least distance travelled between Events is 2 hexes (2e page 110). Adding 1 event for the Midgewater Marshes hex, this gives a Maximum of 5 + 1 Events in Summer - as long as they are all failed. Taking an arithmetic mean for the Fatigue gained gives close to 10 Fatigue (page 112 table). Of course the Target of each Travel Event may have other consequences.
Passing the Travel test each time would be a total of 4 + 1 Events (one for the marshes). Tengwars would realistically reduce this by one or two Events. A good chance of around 4 to 6 Fatigue. Maybe more likely if spending hope on an Inspired Guide's Marching test and pulling several tengwars.

The travel time is 11 days for 11 hexes plus 1 day for the marshes plus as many days as there are hexes remaining that are considered hills or forests. Since our party is off roading, let's make all the remaining hexes like that. Total time 22 days. There is as much chance of increasing the number of days as decreasing the number of days travelling in the Journey Events Table (p112).

So on this 2e journey you probably get a more limited Range of results for Fatigue gained (4 to 10 Fatigue) than with 1e which could vary a lot instead(0 to 12 Fatigue). So I am not sure that the difference between 1e and 2e in Fatigue is so very much in typical play. An actual game has too much variation to be sure that 2e is twice as fatiguing as 1e.
But if my TIMING calculations are OK, then 36 days in 1e is different from 22 days (or less!) using 2e.


*is it any wonder 2e Travel is preferred!
On a map-related note: Aragorn states that traveling along the Great East Road, he could make the Last Bridge from Weathertop in 6 days. Looking at the 2e map, and being generous with Weathertop (it inhabits 3 hexes), it is 6 hexes along the road to the Bridge!! Also, Aragorn anticipates an approx. 14 day journey for them traveling 'off-road'. Assuming they 'followed' the road while being miles off of it, the double hex cost for rough terrain actually works out.
 
Dunheved
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Re: Fatigue and Journey's in 2e

Wed 30 Nov 2022, 21:57

In 2e, you would have to fail every Marching test (Travel roll with Guide) to catch all 5 events. Then add in the obligatory event for the Marshes to get 6 Events. In this case, you would expect an average of 12 Fatigue.
Of course, having comparable luck in 1e (failing all Travel rolls) would deliver 12 Fatigue as well.

When you pass a roll in 2e, you end up travelling further before triggering an Event. Rolling Tengwars on the Marching test gives you even more hexes travelled before the Event turns up.
Imagine a Guide with Travel 3 and she spends Inspired hope to roll 1d12 + 5d6 on each Marching test. It is quite fair to guess that this Guide rolls two Tengwars on a roll, so that is 5 hexes covered; then the marshes and maybe two more rolls, with a pass being very likely for both . A total of four Events maximum and something like 5 or 6 Fatigue overall.
In 1e with a TN of only 14, having a skill at level 3 gives you a tiny bit better than 50% chance to be successful in each roll. So again the most common set of results will have 3 out of 6 Successes. Giving 6 Fatigue typically to the players.

One significant difference in the mechanics is that a Successful 2e Travel roll gets you further but you will pick up an Event and some Fatigue. In 1e if the Travel roll is successful, you have zero Fatigue.
In the example discussed, the Fatigue comes out on a par with each other.
So my initial conclusion is that no, the Fatigue picked up is not significantly different overall.

Note: one valid criticism of 1e was that Players quickly learnt to get Travel skill at 3 asap. Once the whole party gets there, and can gain bonus dice as well with a preliminary Lore roll, Travel problems fade to low risk/low occurrence. Often this seemed like meta-gaming, or min-maxing.
In 2e, any long journey brings Fatigue: but a Good Guide will - single handedly- limit that Fatigue for the whole party. Put like that, I like 2e Travel for its narrative approach. And there is the ease of the calculation compared to RAW 1e Travel.
 
Dunheved
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Re: Fatigue and Journey's in 2e

Thu 01 Dec 2022, 17:54

Posted separately in case linking to another page is not satisfactory to the moderators.

http://www.arcdream.com/tor/journeys/index.php

is a link to Shane Ivey's wonderful TOR 1e Journey calculator. (it worked today December 2022)

In this case this piece of software will take into account the increased difficulty of the TN when traversing more challenging terrain. Of course, this reinforces the idea that travelling in 1e is MORE arduous than in 2e. But it does help with the calculations!
 
vilainn6
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Re: Fatigue and Journey's in 2e

Thu 01 Dec 2022, 17:55

I like the change to be honest. In 1e edition once characters had 3 ranks or more in Travel (which everyone does) the fatigue gain was trivial and the whole mechanic was a slog of useless die roll just to see who will get an eye to trigger an event.
 
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Rafamir
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Re: Fatigue and Journey's in 2e

Fri 09 Dec 2022, 18:03

And as an afterthought, if my TIMING calculations are correct, then clearly Professor Tolkien was using TOR 1e Travel Rules for the Hobbit in 1937, so they took months to get to Rivendell: then when he got the Free League version TOR 2e in 1954 he used the newer Travel Rules and Strider made the journey much quicker!
^ This is why I come to these forums.

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