Jsemple
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Hideous Toughness

Sun 02 Oct 2022, 17:36

Hi all, I searched the forums and couldn't find this so apologies if it's already been answered.

While running a combat today, a character hit a Great Orc Bodyguard simultaneously reducing it to zero Endurance and delivering a Piercing Blow.

Given that the Great Orc Bodyguard has Hideous Toughness, would you rule that this inflicts TWO Piercing Blow results?

I ruled that this seemed fair and the Great Orc Bodyguard (that was already Weary) failed both Protection Rolls and died.

I guess I'm just interested to see if this has been addressed anywhere already and I missed it.
James Semple
 
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Harlath
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Re: Hideous Toughness

Sun 02 Oct 2022, 19:28

That’s how this works. One piercing blow as normal from the feat die result, plus a second from reducing the orc to 0 endurance.
 
Jsemple
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Re: Hideous Toughness

Sun 02 Oct 2022, 19:30

Thank you Harlath!
James Semple
 
Andwise
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Re: Hideous Toughness

Mon 03 Oct 2022, 04:59

Kind of related but a little different. One of our dwarves keeps slaying everything straight away. Two handed mattock which is also grievous and then gets Tengwars to add strength rating gives about 14 or 15 which kills the orcs or wolves very easily! Have I been doing something wrong? When they get to 0 they are just dead, right? They don't have to roll a protection roll or anything, right? Unless it is a piercing blow, in which case they roll a protection roll. Seems like there is never any need to roll protection rolls because they are already at 0 endurance after one roll!
 
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Rafamir
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Re: Hideous Toughness

Mon 03 Oct 2022, 06:22

That’s how this works. One piercing blow as normal from the feat die result, plus a second from reducing the orc to 0 endurance.
The order of the Protection Tests is also important when this Fell Ability is triggered. How I would play it is, roll Protection for the Piercing Blow caused by the attack; if it succeeds, no Wound. Then, roll a Protection test for the Fell Ability. If the second roll succeeds, not only is Wounding averted, the Great Orc also returns to full Endurance. (My players have just run into this with a Cave Troll ...)
Last edited by Rafamir on Wed 05 Oct 2022, 17:55, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Harlath
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Re: Hideous Toughness

Mon 03 Oct 2022, 18:26

Agreed Rafamir, and this order is similar to that for PCs, where they take a protection test first due to any piercing blow, then suffer the endurance damage (which might mean you aren't yet Weary when you take the Endurance test!).

Dwarf killing things quickly: sounds right to me, a big weapon, Grievous, High strength and Heavy Blow can defeat run of the mill foes quickly.

But it has risks too!

- Archers might target the unshielded dwarf
- Wargs might use Great Leap to favour attacking the unshielded dwarf

My players often see if they can get to 12 damage with two normal hits or one Heavy Blow, as that's a key route to defeating foes quickly. I think this is good and shows they're engaging with the mechanical side of the game, I do the same when I make a PC, unless I'm focusing on piercing blows (often with a lower Strength character or an archer) or perhaps using Rally Comrades.
 
Andwise
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Re: Hideous Toughness

Mon 03 Oct 2022, 23:37

Thanks Harlath, helpful points.
 
Jsemple
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Re: Hideous Toughness

Wed 05 Oct 2022, 09:40

Thank you again for adding to the conversation.

Two quick points just for maximum clarity and others reading this thread:

1. Hideous Toughness doesn’t require a Hate expenditure.

2. It explicitly states on page 99 of the core rule book that protection rolls are made before adding Weary conditions so there’s absolutely no confusion there. This obviously applies to PCs but could easily apply to an adversary reduced to zero hate via Gleam of Wrath. In 1e I don’t think this was ever so explicitly stated.

Also I agree that a mattock armed dwarf should be tearing through rank and file orcs and wargs easily.
James Semple
 
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Rafamir
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Re: Hideous Toughness

Wed 05 Oct 2022, 17:56

1. Hideous Toughness doesn’t require a Hate expenditure.
Fixed above, thanks for catching that.
 
Dunheved
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Re: Hideous Toughness

Fri 30 Jun 2023, 09:33

Sorry folks. Re-reading some stuff on Hideous Toughness over on Discord and I have either got first order brain-fog, or I misunderstood this mechanic from my first reading.

The Rule e.g. p151 Core book Trolls: "When an attack inflicts damage to the creature that would cause it to go to zero Endurance, it causes a Piercing Blow instead. Then, if the creature is still alive, it returns to full Endurance. "
Hideous Toughness applies to all Trolls, Great Orc BODYGUARDS *, Werewolves, and some Nameless things. Also a few named adversaries such as are found in RotLR Radgul, Lake Monster, Thunir, Beast of Angmar, Tembur.


So a pair of longsword wielders are hacking out chunks of a Great Orc Bodyguard (GOB) page 149. They both have strength 6 and both score a heavy blow while deploying the sword two handed. Each cuts the GOB for 12 damage. Neither blow is a Pierce in its own right, the Feat die is less than 10.
Hideous Toughness takes over. The GOB rolls 1d12 +3d6 to pass TN 18, (without spending any Hate points).

If it passes, it returns to full Endurance (24), and does it STILL have two Wounds. Or does it return to full Endurance and now has One Wound remaining?






*Side question: Hideous Toughness applied to a Great Orc Bodyguard, but NOT a Great Orc Chief? I don't see that as right, a Great orc is a Great Orc. The chief just happens to be more cunning, as the Bodyguard is described as being less cunning p149. Unless justified, I suspect that when I run a game, they too will be Hideously Tough: as long as I understand it right!!

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