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Viperion_NZ
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Re: GRENADE!!! And how do they work

Thu 22 Apr 2021, 01:59

That wasn't my issue, and I have a feeling that if you're throwing an actual, live, high explosive grenade around you'll be a bit more careful about what it might bounce off (which is handled by the rules as is anyway; you have to miss and roll the "directly back" direction on the deviation for it to hit you)
 
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CherryC0p
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Re: GRENADE!!! And how do they work

Fri 23 Apr 2021, 19:06

Just reread your post, and you're right. Having a ridiculously high chance for a grenade to go almost twice as far as the maximum range past the target is an issue.

Max range is max range, so we shouldn't be able to suddenly throw a grenade 5 hexes just because we miss and roll an unfortunate combo on 2d6. Grenades should probably only have a 1 hex deviation distance. With 3 hex range and a (Currently) possibility of a 2 hex bounceback, even if the grenade doesn't land in your hex, you're still taking a D blast, and you don't get the mobility roll you would if it did. The intended target gets nothing
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andresk
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Re: GRENADE!!! And how do they work

Fri 23 Apr 2021, 21:05

I just re-read the rules and to me it seems if you throw a grenade 2 hexes away, the deviation can not exceed 1/2 of that distance, so the maximum deviation is 1 hex. If the throw is 3 hexes away, the deviation is rounded up to 2 hexes. That means unless you throw a grenade into a neighbouring hex (range of 1) there is no way the deviation lands the grenade at your feet.
Edit: Just realized it was never about dropping the grenade at your feet, but the blast radius. But I still think a simple house rule of treating the deviation on a linear scale would fix most problems related to all this. So instead of having a range deviation of 2 in 5/6 cases, you'd have it 50:50 between 1 and 2.

All that being said, the max distance is very conservative actually. I've seen guys who can easily yeet a grenade to about 60m. The standard max range of 3 hexes (30m) is about right for your average person I would think. Overshooting and throwing it 50m is in the realm of possibility. Probably not something you would see on every throw, but certainly possible.
 
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omnipus
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Re: GRENADE!!! And how do they work

Sat 24 Apr 2021, 04:50

Personally I don't really see an issue with the blast radius thing. If your grenade falls short, that might indeed be bad! But even so, you're only faced with a D6 attack -- unlikely to be the end of the world but certainly likely to spook. Sounds about right to me.
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Jedo
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Re: GRENADE!!! And how do they work

Sun 25 Sep 2022, 17:29

I missed this rule the first time and assumed that "logically" the second d6 roll would be an even distribution from 1 to 1/2 the max distance. I even came up with this chart, since the math for max ranges of 7-12 get a bit odd.

Image

But now rereading the rule I realize it is more like an invisible cylindrical forcefield around the targeted hex that has a radius of 6 hexes or 1/2 the max distance, whichever is greater. And if the grenade/shell deviates it will either land inside that radius or it will hit the forcefield and drop like a stone.

It bugged me at first for being counter-intuitive, and/or unrealistic until I realized three things:
  • It makes the rule dead simple to remember. And not having to stop and look up the rule or roll on a table keeps things moving.
  • It keeps the failed roll more significant. In my table above the most common outcome for most failed rolls, especially for grenades, is a 1 hex deviation which means you still probably do some damage to your intended target. But the rule as written means when you fail your mobility roll with a grenade, then 5 times out of 6 it is going to be the more significant result of 2 hex deviation.
  • It errs on the side of more chaos going on in battle and may make the player who rolled up 6 grenades think twice about chucking them everywhere. (probably not.)
 
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Ursus Maior
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Re: GRENADE!!! And how do they work

Sun 09 Oct 2022, 13:41

I had this problem come up yesterday, when one of the character was trying to throw a grenade into a freight cart, which had the door open. Note: I hadn't read the new close combat rules from UO yet and was solely using the vanilla rules from PM.

The exact situation was that the character was standing almost in front of the sliding door (adjacent hex), from which an enemy was harassing the group with rifle fire. So, basically it was a room clearing attack, but the door was approximately at the level of the character's breast.

The character missed the hex/rifleman and the grenade deviated in a slightly bent path to his left. On the hex map the character's position to the target hex was on the no. 6 hex when applying the deviation rule and the player rolled a "2". However, the player also rolled a "6" for distance. I ruled that the hand grenade missed the door low and landed in the hex directly adjacent to the wagon, bouncing off the gravel and tracks, exploding harmlessly behind the freight cart.

After re-reading the rules on deviation, I came across this part on p. 71 (PM) on deviation: "The deviation cannot exceed half of the distance to the target (rounding up)." I think, with the distance being "1", rounding up half of that, I accidentally made the right choice. The rules for hand grenades are a bit all over the place, though, I think: While you need Mobility to use grenades and their range is limited to Short range (usually Range 3 or 2, meaning 30 or 20 meters), Mobility is only used for hitting the target (hex), not for range. I know a lot of people who wouldn't be able to throw a 400 g ball for 30 meters, although they might be able to throw the same ball very precisely for 5-10 meters.

In other words, a good boules player isn't necessarily someone, who can throw the ball 30 meters. That's largely, because throwing techniques for shorter distances can differ considerably from those for reaching long distances, while also allowing for more precision. This means, distance and precision are linked with weapons thrown, making technique and skill very important.

I generally agree with the idea that deviation should be limited to "half the distance thrown", but I also think not all people should be able to throw any kind of throwing weapon over the same maximum distance. Consequently, a grenade exploding next to a character standing probably causes more damage than if the character would lie on the ground.

So, I propose a different set of rules for hand grenades: Range is "1" (could argue for "2") for every grenade, but it's not limited to "short" at all. Instead, the usual modifiers for Heavy Weapons are used. Successes on the Mobility roll can be used for extra damage or extra range. If the desired range is not, i. e. the grenade falls short, then the grenade travels as far as possible (depending upon successes rolled and allocated to Range) in the direction of the target. To roll for deviation, a new target hex is determined by calculating the maximum distance traveled into the direction of the original target. Then the grenade deviates as per the standard rules.

Example: If the original target is 3 hexes away, but only 1 additional success is rolled, the grenade travels just 2 hexes (1 for it's Range plus 1 for the additional success) into the targeted direction, making the hex adjacent to the original target the new targeted hex for deviation. When rolling for deviation, the grenade will now deviate 1 hex - half of it's distance to the (new) targeted hex - into one of 6 possible directions. So there is still a 1/6 chance the grenade bounces into the originally intended hex.

Thoughts? Ideas?
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