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Lagi
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Joined: Mon 25 Jan 2021, 22:48

Opposed Rolls House Rule discussion

Fri 23 Sep 2022, 09:18

1.
Opposing rolls. When both side's success, and are checking who has lower number on dice - its just bad. Skill need to matter.

i suggest
10 + player skill - npc skill > d20

this can be simplified by giving monster [10-skill] modifier display in the stats

then in game its
player skill + NPC modifier > d20 (roll low)

Image

yes monster can improve player chance if monster has lower than 10 skill, it make sense.

2.
there is willpower attribute and willpower points. You should make different name for Mana points. Otherwise, these two are confusing.

3.
there are too many melee weapon skills.
let say you are a warrior who is skilled with sword. Then later in adventure you need to use axe, because your sword get damage, stolen. or the axe is the only magical weapon that can hurt ghosts. The warrior lift the axe, and suddenly he is super incompetent as warrior, and cannot hit anything.

usually, unarmed combat Brawling is just the worst weapon skill (drop stat). unless there is some field in your mechanic that use punches separate to sword play, like extra punch in combat, or clash of swords when both combatant are stuck and can head bash each other or kick him in the groin.

however there is only one range weapon skill which is good. And make range fighter more versatile than melee ones, which is strange because throwing javelins, is very different to shooting from crossbow

4.
0 hp, death
i suggest to call PC with 0 hp wounded. You can also give some funny and narrative interesting wound conditions (bleeding, broken bone, lost fingers, eye..) It makes more sense than invoke death already. Let the death have a meaning, be final. DnD degrade the death concept in rpg. "oh im death? can i make a save rolls?"

5.
there is hit roll and then opposing dodge/parry roll. Can we just do opposing roll in combat? This mean melee attack always hits.
 
jalexandratos
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri 16 Dec 2016, 20:28

Re: Dragonbane Quickstart Feedback

Fri 23 Sep 2022, 18:36

1.
Opposing rolls. When both side's success, and are checking who has lower number on dice - its just bad. Skill need to matter.

i suggest
10 + player skill - npc skill > d20

this can be simplified by giving monster [10-skill] modifier display in the stats

then in game its
player skill + NPC modifier > d20 (roll low)

Image

yes monster can improve player chance if monster has lower than 10 skill, it make sense.
Not sure this makes sense. One doesn’t develop more skill by taking on an opponent they easily outmatch. One just has an easier time of succeeding.

This doesn’t even get into the regressive penalty this imposes on highly skilled characters. If your character has a stat at 18 (the max), then they would receive no bonus. So going up against lower-skilled enemy provides no benefit.

Unless you’re angling to push the success ratio over 100%. If that’s the case, why even roll if there’s no chance of failure? And I get that a roll of 20 is always a failure. But under your suggestion, a character would go from a 70% (skill 14) chance of success to 90%. At that point, I have to ask why even have an opposed skill roll? Any stakes or tension have been completely nullified — they’ve been turned into a bonus to success.
 
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Lagi
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Re: Dragonbane Quickstart Feedback

Fri 23 Sep 2022, 22:54

1.
Opposing rolls....
yes monster can improve player chance if monster has lower than 10 skill, it make sense.
Not sure this makes sense. One doesn’t develop more skill by taking on an opponent they easily outmatch. One just has an easier time of succeeding.

This doesn’t even get into the regressive penalty this imposes on highly skilled characters. If your character has a stat at 18 (the max), then they would receive no bonus. So going up against lower-skilled enemy provides no benefit.

Unless you’re angling to push the success ratio over 100%. If that’s the case, why even roll if there’s no chance of failure? And I get that a roll of 20 is always a failure. But under your suggestion, a character would go from a 70% (skill 14) chance of success to 90%. At that point, I have to ask why even have an opposed skill roll? Any stakes or tension have been completely nullified — they’ve been turned into a bonus to success.
1. no, they dont develop more skill, but they chance of success increase in THIS case (test).

f.ex.
Im trying to hide, and i dont know how to do it and im very clumsy = skill 5. BUT I'm trying to hide from my blind and deaf grandma who has scouting 2.
skill 2 = +8. My chance of hiding from grandma is 5(my skill) + 8(modifier from my poor grandma skills) = 13 (65%) . Sounds very reasonable to me.

f.ex.2
You are the master of shadow, guild master assassin. Sneak skill 18. You are trying to hide from my grandma (scout 2. mdf=10-2=+8). 18+8=26.
My grandma has no chance to find you, unless you roll 20. 5%.
Yes, your skill are absolute overkill, and waste of your time. Because you only risk your reputation if you roll 20.


yes, you have an easier time succeeding if your enemy NPC has skill below 10 (below 50%. 50% chance of success is rubbish).

2. yes, if your skill is 18 (and game cap it at 18 - i didnt know that, wizard has 19 Will f.ex), you gain no benefit from fighting with poor, unskilled opponents (below 10).

3. goblin has sword skill 12 [ -2 ] - it reduces the chance of success.
PC with skill 14 (top of example characters) will have 14 -2 = 12 (60%) of success. NOT 90% (im not even sure how you get to the 90%, even if you understand me idea wrong as 14+2=16 = 80%).

p.s.
I played with this system in my custom rule set. It works and It's easy to apply.

GM need to tell PC the stats of monster, so instead of telling them Goblin has 12 sword skill, he just tell them you have -2 to your parry. And player just making normal roll, for him there is no difference between normal test and opposing one. Except this one modifier to add (subtract).
 
jalexandratos
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri 16 Dec 2016, 20:28

Re: Dragonbane Quickstart Feedback

Sat 24 Sep 2022, 07:17

1. no, they dont develop more skill, but they chance of success increase in THIS case (test).
But the characters do develop more skill in your examples. The increase in probability comes from increasing the character’s skill score (albeit temporarily). In addition, it negates the negative influence that an opposed roll should present against the character’s skill. If a character is working under less than ideal conditions, regardless of how lopsided, probability-wise (and probability is always unforgiving), the chances of success decrease, not increase.

f.ex.
Im trying to hide, and i dont know how to do it and im very clumsy = skill 5. BUT I'm trying to hide from my blind and deaf grandma who has scouting 2.
skill 2 = +8. My chance of hiding from grandma is 5(my skill) + 8(modifier from my poor grandma skills) = 13 (65%) . Sounds very reasonable to me.
This is one convoluted example. But I’ll bite. The clumsy character possess a limited amount of sneaking skill. They may not know how to distribute their weight. Pace themselves, etc… Their ability to successfully sneak is 25% in the best of conditions. Most likely, both characters fail their skill checks. So the clumsy character doesn’t make it across the room. But grandma is pretty much unable to stop them. So I ask, where are the stakes? Why even make this an opposed roll?

But let me counter your convoluted example with one of my own:

You are a terrible cook. Don’t worry, I’m an even worse cook. We enter a cooking contest. You may make a better meal than me. But statistically, we’re both going to make something inedible. You don’t objectively become a better cook just because you’ve engaged in opposition to someone less talented. You need to have some talent to begin with.

f.ex.2
You are the master of shadow, guild master assassin. Sneak skill 18. You are trying to hide from my grandma (scout 2. mdf=10-2=+8). 18+8=26.
My grandma has no chance to find you, unless you roll 20. 5%.
Yes, your skill are absolute overkill, and waste of your time. Because you only risk your reputation if you roll 20.

I dig this example a lot more. But it’s still the same thing as before. You’ve turned Master of Shadows skill from an 18 to a 19. Heck, Master of Shadows may have been better off being Middle Manager of Shadows (say skill 14-16?) and sticking to opponents they outclass. At least that way they’re not being robbed of temporary skill increase point.

But, let’s try this a different way. If Master of Shadow so outclasses grandma, give them a Boon to the roll. Now MoS’s chance of success goes to approx. 90%. If it’s that important to you to have a failure only occur on a 20 (instead of a 19 or 20) then house rule the skill max to 19.

Same results, less math at the table.

yes, you have an easier time succeeding if your enemy NPC has skill below 10 (below 50%. 50% chance of success is rubbish).
Your character only has an easier time of succeeding b/c you’re turning an enemy’s lack of skill into a skill boost for the character.

2. yes, if your skill is 18 (and game cap it at 18 - i didnt know that, wizard has 19 Will f.ex), you gain no benefit from fighting with poor, unskilled opponents (below 10).
Skills and Attributes are two different things. Skill cap is listed on p5 of the Quickstart. Attributes are on p4.

3. goblin has sword skill 12 [ -2 ] - it reduces the chance of success.
PC with skill 14 (top of example characters) will have 14 -2 = 12 (60%) of success. NOT 90% (im not even sure how you get to the 90%, even if you understand me idea wrong as 14+2=16 = 80%).
Gonna skip this one since combat isn’t opposed rolls.

p.s.
I played with this system in my custom rule set. It works and It's easy to apply.
This is entirely subjective. But I’m glad that you’re having a good time and creating something. It can be a lot of fun to talk about the pros & cons of various approaches and mechanics. How about next time you do that w/out starting off the conversation by calling thing “dumb?”

GM need to tell PC the stats of monster, so instead of telling them Goblin has 12 sword skill, he just tell them you have -2 to your parry. And player just making normal roll, for him there is no difference between normal test and opposing one. Except this one modifier to add (subtract).
GM rolls for NPC. Player rolls for character. GM tells the player if opposed roll was successful (or not). No need to tell the player the NPC’s skill.
 
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Lagi
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Re: Dragonbane Quickstart Feedback

Sat 24 Sep 2022, 10:04

Let me assure you, not one time i have thought that you are dumb. I should read what i have written, because its leave this impression. I do not understand everything myself, and I assume my idea was not clear. Thank you for taking time to challenge my idea.

Your cooking example is very good. And nicely explain your concerns.
In such baking contest, i would just make normal test. Opposing rolls in rpg are used mostly, when two parties are working against each other, and you need to decide who won. Option for both of them fail or succeeding is not expected to happen, and mechanic that include such, have to be more complicated, which create more work for players.

f.ex. if one is hiding and another search for him. You dont expect both of them to succeed.
(i know its not how current Dragonbane mechanic Parry/Dodge work in combat, even though i wish it does, but for sake of example) When one try to hit another with sword, and the other one is defending from it. The sword either hit or not.

Above combat example can be solved, with 2x normal rolls (did you hit? then did he block it?), but if the defender is very good (will always block), then the skill of the attacker doesn't matter.
and its twice as much dice rolling in combat.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: [Extracted] Opposed Rolls House Rule discussion

Sat 24 Sep 2022, 10:26

Moderator Action: Extracted this discussion because it becomes very long and a bit sidetracked.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
Original AJ
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Re: [Extracted] Opposed Rolls House Rule discussion

Sun 25 Sep 2022, 12:30

Interesting ideas, and a useful discussion. My thoughts on the points raised:

1 - Skills do matter, if you don't get under your skill you failed anyway. It's not simply who rolled lower. The mechanics are designed to remove the need to do any maths, just roll and check result against your skill and the opponant's roll. Quick and simple, and lower roll is always better. This system is designed to be fast and fun, not a detailed simulation. I think the "no maths" point is really important - there are no modifiers or adjustments at any point in the game. Boons and Banes are it. Also, the player having an opportunity to roll when attacked is important - they actively do something to defend themselves, it's not just the GM rolling. More dice rolls, less maths is promoting mayhem rather than careful calculation.

2 - Given willpower points are used for non magical abilities, changing the name to mana isn't helping really. I like the express link to the stat, but it's an easy houserule change if you want to use a different name since there is no mechanical effect.

3 - As someone who has been practicing historical swordsmanship since 1983, a perennial problem with RPGs is that most fail to recognise that most combat skills apply to all melee combat. I'd prefer a single melee skill, with talents allowing specialisation in particular weapons - or you could (at the cost of more bookkeeping) assign a bane to weapons that the character hasn't used before until they have familiarised themselves with them. Another thing most games get wrong is that strength only matters to establish if you are physically capable of wielding a weapon - actually using it effectively is agility. Higher strength doesn't influence damage done to any great extent - and if you do use excess strength in a swing it makes it much easier to defend against, not harder, because the blow is more obvious and less easy to change targets mid swing to avoid the target's defence. Real swordsmanship is mostly about deflecting attacks away, not stopping them mid swing. But design decisions in games are made for other reasons than strict accuracy, in particular to create reasons to differentiate characters.

4 - That's again something that could easily be added as descriptive text if you want. 0 HP isn't dead, since 1 HP is fully functional, it's just incapacitated. The death rolls are what determine if you recover or die, with more player interaction than a countdown for death if no healing arrives. And again it's a simple mechanic that's quick in play.

5 - Opposing rolls don't work because the target won't always have an action to defend with, and doesn't need to decide whether to use one until they know the attacker has succeeded anyway. Given it's the same number of rolls and against the same skill it would just reduce the chance of successfully defending.

As I read it, this is a system designed to keep the action moving quickly and minimise the careful consideration of options. While of course anyone is free to houserule what they want (and I take full advantage of that with most game systems) if you are changing stuff that is intrinsic to how the system was designed you'd be better starting with a system that was designed to be the type of game you want. It'd be easier to restat the adventures if you want to use the world/scenarios. If you've changed the system much you would need to do that anyway.
 
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Lagi
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Re: [Extracted] Opposed Rolls House Rule discussion

Mon 26 Sep 2022, 10:40

Hi AJ,



1.
edit after delete this point:
the system is what it is. I think 1st post is enough to present my idea. no point discussing it any further.

1.1
"mechanics are designed to remove the need to do any maths"
no.
f.ex damage calculation is a standard complex calculation like 2d6+1d4-4 = X that you need to subtract from HP let's say 13. That's 5 operations and bookkeeping of HP's (and willpower) for all participants.


2.
call it Energy? Vigor?

3.
I would do 5:

[list[*]]fencing - all swords, axes, maces, hammers. use Agility. use in mid-distance, when attacking adjacent tile
[*]brawling - punching, fighting with shields. Use during clash - very close combat fighting, on the same tile. Grappling.
[*]knives
[*]spears (staffs) - all Long weapons, 2 tiles range
[*]marksmanship[/list]

not sure if thats the best however, because there is no clash range of combat, and it will not be created.

4.
wounded state could be just tick box exercise, same as current 6 condition under attributes. I reread this paragraph now. And it's not that bad. It means 0 hp is incapable of further fighting, not dead really.

5.
player could push defense roll (dodge/parry). Roll again when failed. Something that NPC cannot do.
characters will make unlimited defense rolls per round.

"you'd be better starting with a system that was designed to be the type of game you want"
true, i have just written my opinion.

" It'd be easier to restat the adventures if you want to use the world/scenarios. If you've changed the system much you would need to do that anyway."

there is no need to restat any monster. all monster stats-10 give modifier to PC roll. only PC make oppose rolls. instead of multiple rolls. player just make 1x normal roll + NPC modifier. All the rules are the same as for normal roll.

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