Evildrsmith
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Re: Who is Twilight: 2000 4e for?

Sun 15 Nov 2020, 17:18

A few fairly dis-jointed thoughts.

When I first started playing RPGs, i wasn't playing RPGs, I was playing D&D. (And it really was the first RPG I played).
Even when I was playing other RPGs (Traveller, CoC), to non-gamers I was playing D&D (because people had heard of it),
Attributing D&D's market share solely to the nature of the system is to ignore the advantage that comes from being the first mass-appeal tabletop RPG (in a pre-internet era, when non-geeks didn't play computer RPGs because they [Computer RPGs, not non-geeks :) ] didn't exist then. Yes, I am a geek): Great Aunt Annie walks into a games shop to buy something for her nephew, gasps in surprise at the range on offer, but then buys D&D, because that's the one she's heard of. Maybe.

D&D also offer a generic / specific background - it can be any sword and sorcery setting: a very specific world (and there are published campaign worlds for it, or one that the players have read of or seen in a film) or a generic world.

Other long running RPGs seem to use systems that are more or less complex, but benefit from a solid and playable game world:
CoC (the Mythos background which can be applied at almost any time in history - I finished running a CoC Rome mini campaign a bit over a year ago);
RuneQuest, particularly with the Glorantha background
Traveller (which I gather is not / was not that brilliant in recent iterations), with it's well developed imperium background
There's possibly a case for Vampire here too.(The world you know, but from a much different perspective)

But the other thing I take from the above is that they are all amenable to long campaigns. Yes, they can be used to play one-off scenarios or short mini-campaigns, but they can just keep going, if the players want to keep going.(And how long does it take to get a D&D character from 1st level to 20th?)
They also tend to have moderately detailed character generation, where how the character came to be is defined by the generation system or by encouraging the player to fill in the details. This seems to go against the idea of 'quick character generation and then jump right into the game' approach.
The 'quick' approach would seem to give you the 'physical' details of your character (i.e. statistics skills, etc), but the actual 'character' of your character only emerges as you play.
The more detailed approach seems to me to encourage a player to think about their character before they start playing, and thus have some idea of where they come from, their values and goals in life (Putting the 'Role' into Role-playing_)

Even in T2K, this can apply: the first goal in life is to stay alive, obviously, but in the last campaign I ran (a long time ago), after the characters were generated and equipped, we took a few minutes just to establish how come this particular group had formed as a 'breakout from Kalisz' group, which without forcing it established the beginning of a 'character' to each of the player characters, which then developed further as the campaign progressed. As someone almost said, they were not just Grunts.

Trying to make some of the above relevant for T2k:4e:
The T2k campaigns that I ran all petered out due to the Real World getting in the way, but the campaigns weren't short mini-campaigns such that had the PCs got to Bremerhaven I would have said, "right, you all sail away to the west, campaign over". My intention was always to run longer campaigns - step one, survive and get back to where the characters want to be, Step 2: rebuild. (The weakness in the earlier editions to me was the absence of anything much to help develop games that featured the 'rebuild' bit).
Now, I know that the Real World will get in the way and I'm never actually going to be able to run this campaign, but I would like to be able to run a campaign game where the characters that are celebrating restoring an operational water treatment works and wind turbine power supply to the town they are in include one or two characters that can regale their fellows with tails of clearing anti-tank mines near Krakow, and riverine combat on the Vistula.
 
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Vader
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Re: Who is Twilight: 2000 4e for?

Mon 16 Nov 2020, 14:16

The game has already been written, for the most part. FL will not rewrite it because of feedback from the alpha-release. They may add some clarifications, maybe even change small things here and there, fix erratas and typos. The biggest change during an alpha-release I think is the magic mishap system in FbL and that change was still technically very minor if looking at the whole game.

Thanks for clarifying that Fenhorn — that's really very important information!


Thing is, I've let my expectations be coloured by previous insight into Alpha testing of computer games and boardgames, mistakenly assuming the terminology to be similar.

In both of those contexts, at the Alpha stage, I've seen literally anything still be subject to fundamental revision, if it turns out not to provide the experience sought for.

Core mechanics can be tweaked, even completely re-engineered if necessary; key features can be added, or removed ... I've seen feedback to Alpha releases add anything from three months to a year and a half to development time — but in the end, the product tends to be all that much better for it.


The release where the game to all intents and purposes is written and in its final form, and you only look for minor fixes, bugs, clarifications, and errata; possibly tweak a minor sub-system somewhere, is what I've always seen referred to as a Beta.
But even at Beta, if something turns out to be really broken, it'll be fixed before release.

In fact, some projects even in boardgames have had a "release candidate" or "silver" or "final Beta" release, which really is the "final polish" level, where the last errata is checked, typos fixed, rules cross references are double-checked ... basically a proofreading stage, in print publishing terms.


So Fria Ligan does it a bit differently; that's a fair cop. I haven't really involved myself in earlier RPG Alphas here or elsewhere, so I can't say this isn't the industry standard definition for TTRPG's.

But I suspect I can hardly be the only backer out there with a similar experience or perspective. So, for those backers who now expect to be involved in an Alpha release, and of whom at least a part therefore must feel that they actually only are allowed a Beta involvement ... it might perhaps be a good idea to consider how to manage their expectations, before the fact?


[...] even though they most likely missed a lot and forgot more than that.

:mrgreen:
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Who is Twilight: 2000 4e for?

Mon 16 Nov 2020, 14:57

They do change things, but since the core game is already written for the most part (and they will hardly change that), there is a limit to what changes can be made, thanks to feedback. But even minor changes here and there are important and can affect the game in a major way. The magic mishap I mention above, is a small part of FbL perhaps but changes magic drastically.

But I must say, I am eager to see alpha. I will probably see the next WIP play from the Three Skulls (now on Thursday, 9 PM CET, I think), just in case something new is shown.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
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Vader
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Re: Who is Twilight: 2000 4e for?

Mon 16 Nov 2020, 15:01

But I must say, I am eager to see alpha. I will probably see the next WIP play from the Three Skulls (now on Thursday, 9 PM CET, I think), just in case something new is shown.

Me too, also! And increasingly so, by every day that passes...

And thanks for highlighting the upcoming WIP play! I'll certainly catch it afterwards, if not live.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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Re: Who is Twilight: 2000 4e for?

Mon 16 Nov 2020, 15:27

A few fairly dis-jointed thoughts.

When I first started playing RPGs, i wasn't playing RPGs, I was playing D&D. (And it really was the first RPG I played).
Even when I was playing other RPGs (Traveller, CoC), to non-gamers I was playing D&D (because people had heard of it),
Attributing D&D's market share solely to the nature of the system is to ignore the advantage that comes from being the first mass-appeal tabletop RPG (in a pre-internet era, when non-geeks didn't play computer RPGs because they [Computer RPGs, not non-geeks :) ] didn't exist then. Yes, I am a geek): Great Aunt Annie walks into a games shop to buy something for her nephew, gasps in surprise at the range on offer, but then buys D&D, because that's the one she's heard of. Maybe.

D&D also offer a generic / specific background - it can be any sword and sorcery setting: a very specific world (and there are published campaign worlds for it, or one that the players have read of or seen in a film) or a generic world.

Other long running RPGs seem to use systems that are more or less complex, but benefit from a solid and playable game world:
CoC (the Mythos background which can be applied at almost any time in history - I finished running a CoC Rome mini campaign a bit over a year ago);
RuneQuest, particularly with the Glorantha background
Traveller (which I gather is not / was not that brilliant in recent iterations), with it's well developed imperium background
There's possibly a case for Vampire here too.(The world you know, but from a much different perspective)

But the other thing I take from the above is that they are all amenable to long campaigns. Yes, they can be used to play one-off scenarios or short mini-campaigns, but they can just keep going, if the players want to keep going.(And how long does it take to get a D&D character from 1st level to 20th?)
They also tend to have moderately detailed character generation, where how the character came to be is defined by the generation system or by encouraging the player to fill in the details. This seems to go against the idea of 'quick character generation and then jump right into the game' approach.
The 'quick' approach would seem to give you the 'physical' details of your character (i.e. statistics skills, etc), but the actual 'character' of your character only emerges as you play.
The more detailed approach seems to me to encourage a player to think about their character before they start playing, and thus have some idea of where they come from, their values and goals in life (Putting the 'Role' into Role-playing_)

Even in T2K, this can apply: the first goal in life is to stay alive, obviously, but in the last campaign I ran (a long time ago), after the characters were generated and equipped, we took a few minutes just to establish how come this particular group had formed as a 'breakout from Kalisz' group, which without forcing it established the beginning of a 'character' to each of the player characters, which then developed further as the campaign progressed. As someone almost said, they were not just Grunts.

Trying to make some of the above relevant for T2k:4e:
The T2k campaigns that I ran all petered out due to the Real World getting in the way, but the campaigns weren't short mini-campaigns such that had the PCs got to Bremerhaven I would have said, "right, you all sail away to the west, campaign over". My intention was always to run longer campaigns - step one, survive and get back to where the characters want to be, Step 2: rebuild. (The weakness in the earlier editions to me was the absence of anything much to help develop games that featured the 'rebuild' bit).
Now, I know that the Real World will get in the way and I'm never actually going to be able to run this campaign, but I would like to be able to run a campaign game where the characters that are celebrating restoring an operational water treatment works and wind turbine power supply to the town they are in include one or two characters that can regale their fellows with tails of clearing anti-tank mines near Krakow, and riverine combat on the Vistula.

You highlight a most pertinent point, I think — one among many, actually, but the one that caught my eye in particular is the observation that more than compelling systems, gamers look for compelling games; as in, the experience of a world that feels interesting and engaging to romp around in. The actual mechanics of this romping around come secondary, but the more pronounced the extended campaign component is, the more likely are players to want a system that emphasises characters — character building and development.

I believe you have made a very important point there!

Different games of course may have different structures — Call of Cthulhu is generally structured around limited campaigns (I think few expect to go on from having played through HotOE to playing through MoN, to BtMoM, with the same characters); ALIEN is generally structured around the cinematics; games like Traveller and D&D generally offer structures of campaigns that can stretch into infinity; and so on; and so forth.

Twilight: 2000 ... probably falls into that last category.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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Re: Who is Twilight: 2000 4e for?

Tue 17 Nov 2020, 01:00

Evildrsmith, that does sound like a satisfying campaign, and I agree. One of the reasons I was drawn to FL's licensing of this was that I know they have lots of experience with both open-world and base-building in their other titles. Those are two things that seem like they've always been absent from past offerings.

Traveling theatre troupe also sounds pretty fun, I have to admit.
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Re: Who is Twilight: 2000 4e for?

Tue 17 Nov 2020, 14:26

Evildrsmith, that does sound like a satisfying campaign, and I agree. One of the reasons I was drawn to FL's licensing of this was that I know they have lots of experience with both open-world and base-building in their other titles. Those are two things that seem like they've always been absent from past offerings.

Traveling theatre troupe also sounds pretty fun, I have to admit.
Base Building being systemized really wasn't much of a thing, except in Champions and Marvel Super Heroes, in the 80's and 90's. There were the (severely wonky) castle rules in Original D&D and in AD&D 2E's Castle Guide, and castle building being handled in Pendragon as a monetary drain for prestige and only losing income from raiders was in a supplement for KAP1E and a different one for KAP3E/4E...
In the last 20 years, I've seen a bit of a growth towards it - some from the OSR crowd, some from new school games, like FFG's Star Wars (in supplements), and of course Reign, Houses of the Blooded, Blood & Honor.... to name a few.

Open World hex-crawl type gaming was extremely common in the 80's... but GDW opted to not go hex-crawler Back in the Day... Still, it was very much done as an open world crawl, if the GM opted to run it that way.

The combination is part of what draws me, as well... the absence of base building in the T2K1E was no surprise, and in T2K2E, mildly annoying, but then it wasn't really relevant to me back then. Plus, the relative simplicity of the YZE core mechanics - made slightly harder with the variable dice...
I've got situations to put players' characters into and see how they twist.
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Re: Who is Twilight: 2000 4e for?

Wed 16 Dec 2020, 04:44

Age: fiftysomething
Gamer Hx: Wargamer -----> roleplayer (grognard x2); played T2K but not a lifelong fan of the game - last four games played: Flashing Blades, 5e D&D, Boot Hill, Mothership
Life Hx: no military experience - astronomer, research diver, park ranger, resource ecologist, marine biology teacher, critical care paramedic, cartographer, youth baseball coach
4e audience? FL fans and T2K grognards

I backed the Kickstarter because, as much as I like 1e, asking casual players to allocate 880 points to skills as part of their first experience playing a game is a bit much. 1e T2K is written for groganrds, particularly those with real-life military or at least wargaming experience. I want something I can sit down and play with a more gentle learning curve. I have Vaesen so I had some idea of how 4e might play.
 
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Re: Who is Twilight: 2000 4e for?

Thu 17 Dec 2020, 01:22

Hello, Thought I would chime in my 2 cents.


I'm over 50
I bought the GDW editions of T2k back in the day, and I played them... A lot.
I am and always have been a fan of all things military,
I am an old fan with memories of growing up during the cold war and deep roots of T2K.

But it is always nice to see newer, younger players checking out T2K.
Bring on the FNGs.
 
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Re: Who is Twilight: 2000 4e for?

Wed 15 Feb 2023, 08:07

Who are you — an old T2k fan; a gamer who didn't play T2k before, but remembers the Cold War and/or the late 90's; or a gamer with no first-hand connection to the game's theme or era?

In your view — who would you surmise is going to be the game's main audience?
I know this is an old post, but I'm just barely starting to hit the forums =)

I am grumpy old bast***, 55, born and raised in Germany, emigrated to the US at 16, and joined the US Navy at 18, so, yeah, I remember the Cold War; and at the time the very real fear that the sh** could hit the fan and the Russians are gonna come. I started gaming at 16, D&D at first, but also Gamma World, Aftermath, Morrow Project, and Traveller mainly. I Found T2K when I was in the Navy, played at my local FLGS, and after I got out and moved to Utah, ran a couple of campaigns.

I think the main audience will be older gamers, and judging by the forums and other social media groups, I think I'm not far off. Would love to see younger get into it though.

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