Colgrevance
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Question about "Lead the Way": Consequences of mishaps that prevent progress

Wed 12 Aug 2020, 16:42

The general rules for the "Lead the Way" action while travelling state that the pathfinder rolls before entering a new hex, but that you enter it regardless of outcome - in case of a failure, the consequence being that you additionally roll on the mishaps table.

But what about mishap results that state you "won't make any progress on the map during this Quarter Day"? Does this only prevent all further travel, i.e. it only affects you if you haven't already used your maximum travel allowance, or does it mean you do not enter the hex you rolled for after all?
 
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Konungr
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Re: Question about "Lead the Way": Consequences of mishaps that prevent progress

Thu 13 Aug 2020, 00:19

I would rule that you do not enter the hex. You roll before entering. You fail and roll mishaps. If mishaps says you dont make progress then you dont make progress.
 
Colgrevance
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Re: Question about "Lead the Way": Consequences of mishaps that prevent progress

Thu 13 Aug 2020, 09:31

I would have thought so, but the general rules are quite clear that the procedure looks as follows:

1. "As you enter a nex hexagon"), you roll for Lead the Way
2. Regardless of outcome, you move into the intended hex ("Failure means you still enter the hexagon"...)
3. If Lead the Way failed, you roll on the mishap table (..."but you suffer a mishap and must immediately roll on the table on the next page")

Results on the mishap table, on the other hand, sound like they are meant to affect the whole of the movement, even preventing entering the hex that was rolled for, thus contradicting number 2 above. E.g, take the result for 46-62 - Fog: It says "In difficult terrain, you're stuck in the hex you started". Following the general procedure above, this would never happen, as you roll for mishaps only after entering a new hex - so you always get to move at least one hex and would never be totally stuck. And for mishaps that prevent progress, it is not clear if they mean any progress at all or any further progress - the latter case would take a lot of sting out of the mispap, as it might occur when I have already travelled maximum distance anyway, thus not reducing movement at all.

To me, it sounds like general rule and mishap table follow a different intent. Or it might be another case of ambiguous wording... In either case, I'd like a clarification.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Question about "Lead the Way": Consequences of mishaps that prevent progress

Thu 13 Aug 2020, 09:40

You always enter the new hex unless the mishap table say otherwise.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
Colgrevance
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Re: Question about "Lead the Way": Consequences of mishaps that prevent progress

Thu 13 Aug 2020, 10:12

You always enter the new hex unless the mishap table say otherwise.
Now that makes sense, but definitely contradicts the rules as written. Is this an official erratum? Apologies for questioning your answer, but I'd like to stay as close to the original intent as possible.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Question about "Lead the Way": Consequences of mishaps that prevent progress

Thu 13 Aug 2020, 10:28

You always enter the new hex unless the mishap table say otherwise.
Now that makes sense, but definitely contradicts the rules as written. Is this an official erratum? Apologies for questioning your answer, but I'd like to stay as close to the original intent as possible.
That is how rules are written. You have a rule then you might have exceptions to that rule. Some of the results on the mishap table clearly alters the result of the Lead the Way roll.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
Colgrevance
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Re: Question about "Lead the Way": Consequences of mishaps that prevent progress

Thu 13 Aug 2020, 16:44

In exception-based rules, it's usually clear which rule takes precedence, or (even better) an explicit hierarchy is given. Neither is the case here, in my opinion - without insight into the design rationale, I cannot tell why the mishap table should trump the general rule here (there might be good reasons for always allowing at least one hex of travel, as the general rule does).

I am totally fine with you having a different view, but just stating "that is how rules are written" neither tells me if your answer is the official interpretation (which I'd like to follow) or if there is no official solution and I should make up my own mind.

Edited to add:
Reading through this thread again, I think I made a mistake by not stating my intentions clearly. I posted my question on the official forum to
1. See if I could get an official answer, including source (errata etc.) - which I haven't gotten, as far as I can tell.
2. Barring that, I'd like others' opinions on how to handle the rules and arguments that support their view - I've gotten two answers (thanks for that!), but neither included any argument (Sorry, but I still think pointing to exception-based rules design in general doesn't qualify).
 
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Konungr
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Re: Question about "Lead the Way": Consequences of mishaps that prevent progress

Thu 13 Aug 2020, 18:22

You are technically correct from a technical rules writing point of view in that this presents a case that is not clearly defined. However,

1) if you are reading the english version of the book then you are reading a translation. The source material is in another language that may not translate directly. Keep that in mind for technical issues such as this.

2) The first set of steps stipulates the default rules. The mishaps table details specific rules. While not stated specific generally trumps default.

In magic the gathering monsters that are blocked cannot carry excess damage over to the controling player... Except trample. Trample takes the definitive default rule and supercedes it.

If the mishaps result contradicts the default rule then the specific result should trump the default.

You can feel it doesn't qualify but exception based rule design is actually most rule design. By using exception based they don't need a line on every result saying you do move forward a hex. They only need the exceptions. Which saves word count, page numbers, and printing costs.
 
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Ebrim
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Re: Question about "Lead the Way": Consequences of mishaps that prevent progress

Fri 14 Aug 2020, 16:37

The intent seems clear. You staying in the starting hex seems difficult to confuse. I respect wanting to stay as close to the letter as possible but this is a very small detail to get hung up on. :)

I think what they’re trying to say there is that even though a mishap may occur you’re not failing your move on the map just because you didn’t succeed the roll - the mishap gives the details. Or to put it in a different way the default state is to move despite success or failure but look to the mishap for details.
 
Colgrevance
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Re: Question about "Lead the Way": Consequences of mishaps that prevent progress

Sat 15 Aug 2020, 18:59

The intent seems clear. You staying in the starting hex seems difficult to confuse. I respect wanting to stay as close to the letter as possible but this is a very small detail to get hung up on. :)
I disagree with you: there are further rules interactions (e.g. you get XP if you move at least one hex), so in my opinion it's not such a small issue. Ymmv, but I like rules where I don't have to interpret what is written - even you admit that the intent only "seems" clear. I'm fine with rulings, but if a rule is provided, it better not be confusing or contradictory.

I think what they’re trying to say there is that even though a mishap may occur you’re not failing your move on the map just because you didn’t succeed the roll - the mishap gives the details. Or to put it in a different way the default state is to move despite success or failure but look to the mishap for details.
Yes, that's the way we will play it at our table. I just wish the rulebook would be clearer - there was some argument over this, and I wasn't even the one who startet it! ;)

NB There is precedent for confusion arising because exceptions and their interaction with a general rule not being spelled out consicely - the Mule Talent. And other Talents (Executioner and Lucky) still don't follow the wording convention. It's totally understandable translation leads to ambiguous wording - but in my opinion, a publisher should still try and correct ambiguities. And that's all I am asking for.

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