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darl_loh
Posts: 20
Joined: Mon 27 May 2019, 00:54

Re: Xenomorph and Pulse Rifles

Sat 31 Oct 2020, 17:00

Getting the topic back on topic...

Any thoughts on the rule I tried out with my group? Good, bad, indifferent?

Thoughts on the need (or lack thereof) to do something different with pistols?
 
Theaghan
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Re: Xenomorph and Pulse Rifles

Tue 17 Nov 2020, 13:15

Getting the topic back on topic...

Any thoughts on the rule I tried out with my group? Good, bad, indifferent?

Thoughts on the need (or lack thereof) to do something different with pistols?
The extra damage as full weapon damage seems good to me.
I hope in the new module, the Colonial Marines one, there will be some official rule for this kind of gameplay.
 
Veteran Sergeant
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Re: Xenomorph and Pulse Rifles

Thu 26 Nov 2020, 20:21

So, while it does present one possible, valid interpretation of the scene, it is not the only one.
There's a certain amount of humorous irony in a guy named Vader invoking the Obi Wan Kenobi Defense of "from a certain point of view."
 
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Vader
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Re: Xenomorph and Pulse Rifles

Thu 26 Nov 2020, 20:36

...hmmm. Do I really...?

Perhaps ... from a certain point of view. :mrgreen:
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
ErikModi
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed 08 Dec 2021, 16:27

Re: Xenomorph and Pulse Rifles

Fri 10 Dec 2021, 03:57

Well, I didn't see any rules about necroposting...

On pistols: yes, I am firmly in the camp that says the film shows clearly Gorman's pistol had precisely zero effect on the incoming xenomorph. If you're into guns (I know just enough to be dangerous), there are a whole lot of factors that can play into how effective a given pistol is at a given task. Barrel length, propellant amount, bullet weight, bullet composition, bullet shape, range to target, etc. Unless you're in a super-fiddly system trying to accurately model reality, a lot of this is too small to matter in terms of RPG stats. Vasquez had a bigger gun, and (more relevant to this system, I think) was a bigger badass who just rolled more damage than Gorman could.

On tension, horror, and guns: Keeping the tension by making guns ineffective is not good. For starters, it's countered by onscreen evidence in Aliens... though note, we don't actually see all that many Aliens die to gunfire in the film, but when we do, it's from a short burst or two. For two, it goes against why the Aliens have acid blood in the first place. I forget which special feature of which packaging of the Alien films I saw this, but there's basically a big treatise by Dan O'Bannon about his thoughts on the first film. He deliberately chose not to make the Alien scary by making it bulletproof, he thinks that's lazy. Guns can kill things real good - he contends an ordinary hunting rifle could bag a T. Rex (I personally doubt this, if only because sheer size means you're unlikely to hit a vital solidly with ease, but again, I'm no expert). Instead, he gave the Alien acid blood. The Nostromo crew had weapons, you can see them in some alternate takes. They just didn't dare shoot at the Alien, for fear it would burst like an acid balloon and rupture the hull, or damage some widget that would strand them ten months from any rescue, or damage some other widget that would blow the ship up. That wasn't a concern in Aliens, taking place on a planet with breathable air, but if an Alien was facing Marines aboard ship, bad idea to splatter it over the bulkheads with explosive bullets. So even if you have a weapon to hand that could easily kill an Alien, based on the situation... do you dare take the shot? Tension and horror can thus be preserved.

On weapon damage: all the weapons seem a little anemic to me in terms of damage output, but I'm not all the way through the core book yet, never mind having any practical experience. Anyone done more play since this thread was active and can share your experiences?
 
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Vader
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Re: Xenomorph and Pulse Rifles

Fri 10 Dec 2021, 21:44

But as noted, the editing makes the interpretation of the scene somewhat ambiguous, so … YMMV.
I’ll elect to stand by my viewpoint, if I may.

Vasquez had a bigger gun

Um … actually no, she doesn’t. Her antique custom S&W is a 9mm, exactly the same calibre as Gorman’s H&K — and that’s assuming the H&K still fires ordinary 9mm, and hasn’t been ballistically upgraded. I rather suspect the latter to be true.


I delve a bit deeper into the weapons in this post:
viewtopic.php?f=99&t=5391&start=12
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
ErikModi
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed 08 Dec 2021, 16:27

Re: Xenomorph and Pulse Rifles

Fri 10 Dec 2021, 22:24

But as noted, the editing makes the interpretation of the scene somewhat ambiguous, so … YMMV.
I’ll elect to stand by my viewpoint, if I may.
Not really, in my opinion. There's a cut away, but before the cut Gorman is firing his pistol as fast as he can squeeze the trigger, which is pretty fast. We cut back, his gun is now empty. We see no dead Aliens aside from the one Vasquez killed, we saw sparks from the bullet impacts, the Aliens are all still closing in. The pistol did nothing. If it's down to "why didn't the Aliens attack while Gorman was shooting," Rule of Drama. Same reason the Alien slowly and menacingly approached Lambert near the end of the first film, same reason the Alien in the atmosphere processor waited for Dietrich to full turn her back and finish her line before coming out of the wall and grabbing her, same reason the Alien waited for Brett to spend so much time calling for Jones before dropping down to attack him. A combination of what makes for the best cinema, what raises tension and horror best, and the practical limitations of the effects technologies used. Dudes in rubber suits can't move that fast, especially without looking silly. For an explanation that works within the reality of the film, to my mind it's far more likely that, believing they knew these humans were bereft of weapons that could hurt them and had no way to escape, they simply felt no rush to get them. Playing with helpless prey is something real animals do, taking pleasure in horrifying helpless humans before grabbing them is totally acceptable for the Aliens.
Vasquez had a bigger gun

Um … actually no, she doesn’t. Her antique custom S&W is a 9mm, exactly the same calibre as Gorman’s H&K — and that’s assuming the H&K still fires ordinary 9mm, and hasn’t been ballistically upgraded. I rather suspect the latter to be true.


I delve a bit deeper into the weapons in this post:
viewtopic.php?f=99&t=5391&start=12
But is that truly an antique 9mm pistol, or a "modern" at the time the film is set pistol made in the style of an old gun, possibly chambered in a different caliber or using more modern ammunition? Technical aspects aside, in the language of film, Vasquez's gun is bigger, physically of larger dimensions, than Gorman's. Unless you know the tech specs of the weapons in question, the assumption by most would be "bigger gun=more power." Since Vasquez made an Alien's face disappear with her pistol, while Gorman's shots bounced off the Alien he was shooting at, the intent is pretty clear: Vasquez's pistol was effective against an Alien, if barely, while Gorman's was not.

Interesting discussion on those weapons, though, and I'll look into it more fully.

But all this is beside the point. Physical dimensions are irrelevant. Caliber is irrelevant. Muzzle velocity is irrelevant. Propellant formulation is irrelevant. Resistance is futile, you will--

Sorry, got carried away there. The question is: weapons in the game, damage values by reasonably competent characters. Do they match the performance we often see when military hardware is turned against the Xenomorphs? If not, bug or feature? If bug, how patch?
 
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Vader
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Re: Xenomorph and Pulse Rifles

Sat 11 Dec 2021, 01:23

Vasquez had a bigger gun

Um … actually no, she doesn’t. Her antique custom S&W is a 9mm, exactly the same calibre as Gorman’s H&K

[…]
Technical aspects aside, in the language of film, Vasquez's gun is bigger, physically of larger dimensions, than Gorman's.

Um … again, actually no, it isn’t. The S&W Model 39 is very close in size to the VP70 — if anything, it’s slightly smaller.

If you check the post I linked to, at the bottom you’ll find a diagram with the silhouettes of the weapons in question superimposed over one another in scale.

The gun may look bigger in Vasquez’s hand because she is rather a small lady…

So I’m afraid that point is effectively negated. If Vasquez’s (by all appearances antique) gun is effective on an Alien, then Gorman’s (obviously modern military-grade) gun must be, too.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
ErikModi
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed 08 Dec 2021, 16:27

Re: Xenomorph and Pulse Rifles

Sat 11 Dec 2021, 02:46




Um … actually no, she doesn’t. Her antique custom S&W is a 9mm, exactly the same calibre as Gorman’s H&K

[…]
Technical aspects aside, in the language of film, Vasquez's gun is bigger, physically of larger dimensions, than Gorman's.

Um … again, actually no, it isn’t. The S&W Model 39 is very close in size to the VP70 — if anything, it’s slightly smaller.

If you check the post I linked to, at the bottom you’ll find a diagram with the silhouettes of the weapons in question superimposed over one another in scale.

The gun may look bigger in Vasquez’s hand because she is rather a small lady…

So I’m afraid that point is effectively negated. If Vasquez’s (by all appearances antique) gun is effective on an Alien, then Gorman’s (obviously modern military-grade) gun must be, too.
Your image links are broken at least for me.

And whatever else there is, this fact remains: Vasquez's bullets penetrate an Alien, granted at very close range and hitting it square in the face. Gorman's bullets bounce off. This is shown onscreen. Anything else is conjecture. Gorman's gun may have worked as well at closer range. The guns may have had different ammo loaded, even if they are the same caliber. Swap the pistols from one character to the other, the shown results may have been exactly the same, Vasquez just being a better shot and bigger badass.

I agree I'm not going to convince you I'm right. You agree you're not going to convince me you're right.

But NONE OF THIS MATTERS. It's a fun thing to nerd debate, but it has zilch to do with the question at hand.

How do the weapon damages in the RPG stack up in actual play, and does this capture the feel of the films? While discussing what actually happens in the film can be valuable, we're at the point of arguing for its own sake, which isn't what I'm after here, thank you.
 
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Vader
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Re: Xenomorph and Pulse Rifles

Sun 12 Dec 2021, 00:36

Your image links are broken at least for me.

Try a different browser. They work jus fine for me on Safari on Mac, on an iPhone, and on a PS 4.

As for the rest, I’m quite content to agree to disagree.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
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