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Riggswolfe
Posts: 149
Joined: Wed 07 Dec 2016, 17:27

Re: Alien films

Tue 14 Jan 2020, 19:28

It also has a comic version and maybe a novel. I haven't looked into it but I'm of the opinion that almost anything would be better than the Alien 3 we got.
 
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Corporal Hicks
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue 07 Jan 2020, 20:29

Re: Alien films

Tue 14 Jan 2020, 21:56

Well I think the Alien Prequels have interesting ideas, but both scripts seem a bit flawed. I guess some accident has to happen to get the Xenomorph mess started, but in both Movies this wasn't very clever written (i.e. stupid behaviour of some of the characters). Visualy both Movies look awesome, but I would also agree that it lacks continuty. If you compare the clunky computers in the original Movies with those fancy holo-displays.... But I guess Star Trek Discovery was worse in this field...

I'm not quite sure what I should think about David creating Xenomorphs, but I find the Engineers very fascinating. When 'm correctly informed, there will be at least another Movie, so let's wait and see how that plays out.

About that William Gibson script, I didn't read it yet but I'm curious about it.
Kill it... kill it with fire!!!
 
S.M
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat 14 Dec 2019, 06:58

Re: Alien films

Wed 15 Jan 2020, 01:03

I'm curious about what folks here think of William Gibson's Alien III script. I read it many years ago; it has Hicks and Bishop as the protagonists, not Ripley. I think this is the main reason Fox didn't go with it: they wanted to keep the focus on Ripley's character.

Just today I found out that Audible released an audio drama of it last year starring Michael Biehn and Lance Henrikson, which I am going to buy. Hopefully it is as good as it sounds like it will be.
I didn't care for the script (though the second draft was an improvement).  However I liked both the comic and audio adaptations.  Go figure.

It shows that it's a second draft though, and it's still uneven.
 
decanox
Posts: 169
Joined: Tue 04 Jun 2019, 10:14

Re: Alien films

Mon 20 Jan 2020, 02:27

I have just seen Prometheus again so I have more detailed memories about this film thinking about this thread.

I think the main problem is that script has many flaws. In essence, the Prometheus crew seems a group of selfish kids going to discover an alien civilization but it can be specified following a chronological order:

SPOILERS! (Although I suppose everybody have seen the movie).


- At first we see David (Michael Fassbender). He looks intriguing, even suspicious. Later in the film, he schems against the crew, disobeying orders or giving the black goo in a glass of water to Holloway, Shaw's boyfriend, and Holloway takes the glass without complaint even he saw how David introduced the finger inside the water. Nobody suspects about David, nobody complains about him (what different with Ash in Alien!). And we don't know anything about his motivations, what happened to him to behave in that way? It's not explained in the film.

- Then, everybody wake up in the Prometheus and Shaw and Holloway explain the mission. The reaction to that? The crew laughs or receive the information with a total lack of interest (specially the too stupid geologist and biologist). Come on! You are the few selected men and women who are going to discover an alien race or even our creators! A bit of surprise, concern, fear or something! They behave as little kids in a nursery school instead.

-  They arrive to LV-223 and explore the engineer building (ship). At some point they see engineers holos running inside. It has no sense. Why those holos? I don't know... I think it's a fast way to explain the audience the fate of the ship, without complications or a well worked script.

- At some point inside the engineer ship, after removing their helmets inside an unknown atmosphere (?), the stupid geologist and the stupid biologist argue with Shaw (Noomi Rapace). The geologist says that he is not interested in the discovery of an alien race (?), he is only interested in minerals so the annoying two leave the group inside the ship and nobody cares or reproach his attitude. Then the silica storm comes and the group leaves the ship with the stupid two inside.

- Janek (Idris Elba), who is joking all the time and behaves as he was a pilot of a 30 minutes domestic flight, warns the geologist and biologist. Then it comes the snake scene, the silly reactions and both of them die. Meanwhile, Janek and Vickers (Charlize Theron) were fucking ten minutes. Why? Vickers looks more like a robot than a human, insensitive and bad-tempered, two-dimensional character, but now she accepts to make love with Janek. Why? Because the director says so.

- After the discovery, the explosion of the engineer head, Holloway is drunk and looks depressed. Why? I don't know. I suppose he desired to find some kind of god... In a common case, I think, a normal person would be excited with the discovery even if the engineers were dead but he is depressed and drunk without explanation. Then he accepts the black goo inside the glass (maybe he is a bit blind). After that, he makes love with his girlfriend, Shaw.

-  Shaw is pregnant with a xeno. David and the doctor orders her to entry hypersleep or cryo. She disobeys and fight the doctor. Shaw wins hitting her with a bar in the head. Then she removes the xeno which turn to be a big disgusting kind of squid. After that, Shaw see the doctor and David who say nothing to her, as if nothing had happened before. In the other hand, the squid is inside the med-bay growing and growing but nobody cares. The geologist arrives to the Prometheus transformed into an abomination. It kills many crewmen until the abomination is killed. It seems nobody cares too much about the dead crew.

- Weyland is alive and they go to the ship. Suddenly, Shaw knows in a magical way (because I don't know why) that engineers want to kill humanity. Maybe, engineers wanted to transport the black goo to a warehouse or use it to make a big zoo in their homeland. The only engineer alive kills Weyland and scape using the ship. Shaw warns Janek of the engineer's intention. Janek laughing as always with other two characters we don't know because they have not spoken a word in the entire film suicide crashing the Prometheus against the engineer ship... no doubts, no fears. Then it comes the running under the shadow of the engineer ship scene.

- After the last fight scene, David suddenly becomes a good guy. After killing his boyfriend, David helps Shaw to escape the planet.  

All in all, even the huge weaknesses of the script, I think Prometheus is better than Covenant but is years-light from Alien or Aliens. And I would add that Alien 3 (which it's not a good movie) has less weaknesses or holes than Prometheus.   
 
S.M
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat 14 Dec 2019, 06:58

Re: Alien films

Mon 20 Jan 2020, 07:00

While you have noted a few genuine issues, many others are quite clearly addressed in the film.

 It's not explained in the film.
Yes it is.  David is taking orders from Weyland, so Weyland can become immortal.  Everything else is secondary to that.
Why those holos? I don't know... I think it's a fast way to explain the audience the fate of the ship, without complications or a well worked script.
It shows the audience that something bad happened ("It got out" as Janek later says), rather than having someone explain it, raising the tension. A roar very similar to the Deacon at the end can be heard on the recording. Following the holograms also leads them to the ampule room.
inside an unknown atmosphere
Not unknown.  Three people - Holloway, David and Ford - mention how safe the atmosphere is before they take their helmets off.
Holloway is drunk and looks depressed. Why? I don't know.
He says why in the film.  "I wanted to meet them".
Then he accepts the black goo inside the glass (maybe he is a bit blind).
As you said yourself - he's drunk.
In the other hand, the squid is inside the med-bay growing and growing but nobody cares.
As far as we know, after it's removed from Shaw, it's dead.
It seems nobody cares too much about the dead crew.
They're alien fodder in terms of the story and not overly important.  Much like most of the prisoners in Alien 3.  Except many of those guys had names and the Prometheus crew generally didn't.
Suddenly, Shaw knows in a magical way (because I don't know why) that engineers want to kill humanity.
David - who can understand the Engineer language - tells her they want to go to Earth to destroy it.  Shaw, Janek and Vickers had more or less already worked this out however from seeing the ampules in the ship's hold.
Janek laughing as always with other two characters we don't know because they have not spoken a word in the entire film suicide crashing the Prometheus against the engineer ship... no doubts, no fears. Then it comes the running under the shadow of the engineer ship scene.
Chance and Ravel were in many scenes with lots of dialogue throughout the film.  Also, look up 'gallows humour'.
- After the last fight scene, David suddenly becomes a good guy. After killing his boyfriend, David helps Shaw to escape the planet. 
David helps Shaw because Shaw is the only one who can help David.  Otherwise he'd be stranded.  He doesn't become a "good guy" as Covenant clearly shows.
 
decanox
Posts: 169
Joined: Tue 04 Jun 2019, 10:14

Re: Alien films

Mon 20 Jan 2020, 11:05

Hi...

I think it's better that not answer every point you have stated or we will be here until the end of time :) (I mind, I would try to refute your points, you would do the same with mine and so on) Question is that when I saw the film in the cinema, I went out willing to kill Ridley Scott (like many other people). I saw the film a second time and I forgave some questions. Yesterday I saw again... looking for flaws and weaknesses and I think there are a lot of flaws (a lot, a lot) like many people think. If not, Prometheus would be beside Alien or Aliens but it's not.

For example, you say that David is following instructions from Weyland. It's a really feasible explanation, of course; but I didn't see Wayland giving orders to David so I only see an android doing suspicious actions and no character cares about that. In Alien, Ripley and Parker were distrusting Ash when he allowed Kane to enter the ship and this distrust remains for the entire movie.

Another example, when people remove their helmets. Yes, Holloway, David and Ford advised about that... but if I was there I would have said: "Ok, I can breathe this atmosphere, you are expert scientist in those things, but my instinct says that better not". It's like Lambert in the Alien engineer ship... ok, you are not a roughneck, you are a pilot, and you have to explore an alien ship you never seen before, she took on a credible mood for me saying all time: "please, come back. We have to come back. We have to go, etc." It's exactly what I would say, it's credible.

What happened to the Prometheus and its crew in many scenes it's not credible. I don't identify with anybody. I feel nothing for their deaths, even they make me happy (the case of the geologist, for obvious reasons).
In Alien or Aliens you feel every death, from the responsible Dallas to the funny Hudson and I wanted that Hudson survived.

In Prometheus the plot advances by fits and starts with easy and abrupt explanations or without any at all. The engineer holos, for example, explained too many things but there is no justification for them (why director says so). Or Shaw begins saying that engineers want to destroy Earth when she removed the squid from her belly (not after, when she meets David)... How had she known that fact? Or Janek crashing the engineer ship... I don't say that crashing is not credible, I say that there is no tension in the scene, they crash and die as they are going for a walk. To die is a difficult decision, but here it's taken in two seconds.         

These things, in my opinion, make Prometheus not a good movie. It might be a good one if the script and the characters was well worked but it wasn't. It's not a bad movie because things like engineers and it was well shot and directed. Maybe that's the big reason I don't like: if they cared a bit, if they worked in the idea, the movie could be a really good one... but they didn't, it was like a: "meh... do whatever, people will go to cinema no matter what we do". 
 
Bengt Petter
Posts: 772
Joined: Sat 09 Apr 2011, 11:27

Re: Alien films

Mon 20 Jan 2020, 22:57

I think the first movie would have been great also as a novel (no, I don’t mean the novelization, more if it would have been a novel from start). The story is simply very good. And the visuals in the movie are just stunning. It was also something completely new at the time. And it still has that same feeling.

Alien Covenant, on the other hand, would probably have been a terrible novel (again, not talking about any novelization). The story is too silly. Only the visual stuff made it kind of interesting. Ridley took some Giger concepts and made them look interesting, but kind of out of context. He is a visual guy, not a great storyteller.

To me this contrast - the amazing first movie, and the other movies that all, more or less, fail to be as good as the original - is the issue. There just has to be a good story. I can write pages about what I think has gone wrong with the franchise, but if I just should pick one thing it would be: the core story is really about the Company and it’s dark secrets. The xenomorphs are just a body horror example. Instead of repeating the same drama - surprised humans encounter the hive - it would have been more interesting to know more about the Company. The corporate bosses are the real monsters to me. Alex White, the writer of The Cold Forge, agreed with me on that one (there is a recorded interview with him, Google and you will find it, and no I didn’t make the interview).

But of course, the xenomorphs is the centerpiece of the brand. So it has to be there, if not, a lot of fans would probably get crazy. But in the long run, you can’t just please the fans and give them more or the same. Fan service can be a bad trick, it isn’t that simple. I think the Star Wars franchise is an illustrating example of exactly that. The latest movie was terrible, simply just repeating the staple tropes (Rey finally became a Skywalker, even though she wasn’t one, I hated that). On the other hand, a lot of people seem to love The Mandalorians. It’s a new story and it’s actually a story (not a filmed Disneyland tour). Hopefully that will be a lesson for Disney, also when it comes the Alien franchise. A good movie is not a Disneyland attraction.

So what I’m hoping too see is a TV series with a good story, real characters (not Ellen Ripley again, she was fine, but we know her story by now), a fresh take on alien life forms (not another derelict ”surprise”) and spectacular photo (perhaps a bit like Gravity, but without Sandra Bullock). It could be either French arty (Denis Villeneuve), or South African video game gritty (Neil Blomkamp). I know that a concept similar to Fargo (a new time period for each season) has been mentioned. That could be interesting. Perhaps first a sequel season to Alien Isolation by Blomkamp (he likes the game), and then a prequel to Alien 3 (life in the penal colony at Fiorina) by Villeneuve. And then maybe a third season based on The Cold Forge (prequel or sequel or maybe even both). Anyhow, I’m quite sure Alex White will be back in the franchise again soon. His novel is better than several of the movies. The story is simply more interesting.

Just imagining things, I know... But there has been a bit too much of nitpicking in this forum (”it’s my Lego, so give me all the pieces”), so I just wanted to dream a bit. To me, Alien is a huge vision about human insignificance in space. To just make it a franchise about another theme park creature is simply to little for me.
 
S.M
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat 14 Dec 2019, 06:58

Re: Alien films

Tue 21 Jan 2020, 01:31

For example, you say that David is following instructions from Weyland. It's a really feasible explanation, of course; but I didn't see Wayland giving orders to David so I only see an android doing suspicious actions and no character cares about that
There's a scene of David talking to Weyland in hypersleep using the visor helmet.  The next scene, Vickers is suspicious, which is why she confronts him afterwards asking "What did he (Weyland)  say?"  David replies "Try harder."   This leads to David poisoning Charlie's drink.  Before this no one has any reason to suspect David.
Another example, when people remove their helmets. Yes, Holloway, David and Ford advised about that... but if I was there I would have said: "Ok, I can breathe this atmosphere, you are expert scientist in those things, but my instinct says that better not". 
You can make an argument that it wasn't a smart move to take the helmets off (someone back on Prometheus warns them not to), but it's not an unknown atmosphere.  And ultimately it wouldn't have made any difference.  There was nothing wrong with the atmosphere.
Or Shaw begins saying that engineers want to destroy Earth when she removed the squid from her belly 
No, she doesn't.  She says they have to leave.  For obvious reasons - Millburn and Charlie are dead, Fifield is missing.  And she just extracted an alien squid monster from her belly.  There's no mention of the Engineers wanting to destroy Earth until later.
Or Janek crashing the engineer ship... I don't say that crashing is not credible, I say that there is no tension in the scene, they crash and die as they are going for a walk. To die is a difficult decision, but here it's taken in two seconds.      
It's not two seconds.  Janek tells Shaw the goo can't get back to Earth and that he will do whatever he has to to make sure it doesn't.  That's when he decides he may have to die to ensure it doesn't.  When the time comes, he doesn't have time to sit back on ponder; he has to act.
In Prometheus the plot advances by fits and starts with easy and abrupt explanations or without any at all.
It's true that the pacing and editing is choppy, particularly in the second half, and it often feels like the film is spinning its wheels, and dumb things happen (the guy with the map gets lost) and there's continuity issues (after the hangar fight with the Fifield monster was recut) but many questions have explanations if one is paying attention.
To me this contrast - the amazing first movie, and the other movies that all, more or less, fail to be as good as the original - is the issue. There just has to be a good story. I can write pages about what I think has gone wrong with the franchise, but if I just should pick one thing it would be: the core story is really about the Company and it’s dark secrets. The xenomorphs are just a body horror example. Instead of repeating the same drama - surprised humans encounter the hive - it would have been more interesting to know more about the Company. The corporate bosses are the real monsters to me. Alex White, the writer of The Cold Forge, agreed with me on that one (there is a recorded interview with him, Google and you will find it, and no I didn’t make the interview).
I don't agree that it's all about the Company and its dark secrets.  For mine it's about people encountering and overcoming monsters (sometimes those monsters are also human).  The Company is definitely a major factor, but that's not what the series is about.
And as great as The Cold Forge is, saying the corporate bosses are the real monster is hardly revelatory.  That was established in Alien and expanded on in Aliens.
 
Bengt Petter
Posts: 772
Joined: Sat 09 Apr 2011, 11:27

Re: Alien films

Tue 21 Jan 2020, 08:59

It’s my OPINION that the Alien franchise in a larger perspective is about The Company and it’s dark secrets. You have another OPONION. That’s just fine to me. I can dissect everything you say, just like you did, but I don’t feel like nitpicking, as I told you in my previous post. Over and out.
 
S.M
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat 14 Dec 2019, 06:58

Re: Alien films

Wed 22 Jan 2020, 01:18

I know it's your opinion.  Which is why I said "I disagree" rather than "You are wrong".

There's no need to get so defensive.
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