decanox
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Close combat and xenomorphs

Tue 10 Dec 2019, 01:22

Hi!

I would want to ask a question and for any opinion if you have seen the same.

In my first games, xenomorphs were lethal. It was easy that one xenomorph could kill one player or even two in a combat situation.


Now after some games, like good humans and "social animals", players have evolved and I am seeing thet they can kill a xenomorph in a round, sometimes the xenomorph can't act at all. Usually, they follow this strategy:

- They never split up the group. They (and me) have seen many horror movies and know that splitting is a fatal mistake. Additionally, it's not difficult to know when a combat could be near.
- When the combat begins, If they can, they exchange initiative orders giving the first card they have to the brave character (see below) who usually goes first in the group.
- One brave character (there is always one according to the agendas) throws to combat against the xenomorph using the cutting torch. If the xenomorph goes first, the character always blocks with the cutting torch and usually he/she blocks the attack (good close combat, 8 for example, plus some stress points, 2 or 3, for a total 11 dice really works).
- The other characters surround the xenomorph like a group of mobsters and open fire. They have discovered the powerful watatsumi bolt gun and, in general, any weapon with "armor piercing" capability. If they can't, the brave one uses the cutting torch which has "armor piercing" too. They break the alien and with a bit of luck and a good die roll, they kill the monster. As I have said before, they can do it in a round.

I don't know if I am doing something wrong, with the text above, now I am not sure about the following:    

- Do you block the successes (easier) or the damage (more difficult)? I understand reading the rules ("Decrease Damage", page 92) that you remove one xenomorph success for one defender success (that is, you are not reducing damage of the atack), so it's easier for the defender.
- Is the "armor piercing" capability used against xenomorph armor? I understand yes, but I admit that, in the tables, the armor is halved "against fire". Is it only against fire or any "armor piercing" halves the alien armor?

Or maybe I have to counter this strategy with other strategies. I think about retreating, but being sincere fleeing is not too much proper for an alien.
 
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HyveMynd
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Re: Close combat and xenomorphs

Tue 10 Dec 2019, 03:12

My first thought is: are you using the acid splash rules?

In the Hope's Last Day game I ran a few days ago, one heroically PC dove for a bolt gun and then shot a xenomorph at near point-blank range for a whopping 4 points of damage.

The resulting acid splash (12 dice total) reduced them to 0 Health, forcing them to roll on the Critical Injury table.
 
Jonbertsch
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Re: Close combat and xenomorphs

Tue 10 Dec 2019, 04:21

Armor piercing halves any armor, and on top of that most xenos are venerable to fire so that is represented by halving armor for fire attacks.
 
decanox
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Re: Close combat and xenomorphs

Tue 10 Dec 2019, 10:51

My first thought is: are you using the acid splash rules?

In the Hope's Last Day game I ran a few days ago, one heroically PC dove for a bolt gun and then shot a xenomorph at near point-blank range for a whopping 4 points of damage.

The resulting acid splash (12 dice total) reduced them to 0 Health, forcing them to roll on the Critical Injury table.
Yes... they are taking the risk, I suppose is a question about risk and luck. My die rolls for acid are not being good... Sometimes I have thrown 10 or 12 dice and I got only 1 success. So the player takes the risk. Anyway, if the acid die roll is a good one, only one player could be affected since only one player is in close combat. The other are firing from some distance. They prefer to take this risk and, with a bit of luck and for now, they are successful.

Armor piercing halves any armor, and on top of that most xenos are venerable to fire so that is represented by halving armor for fire attacks.
  So I supposed well... Thanks.


Maybe it's a question about blocking: it's a fast action, so blocking allows to stop an attack with a fast action and counterattack in his/her turn with the slow action the player has left. In my games, this point is proven to be lethal for the xenomorph if the player uses a weapon with "armor piercing" (the cutting torch) and the player used to roll 11 dice (close combat + stress and the possibility to re-roll) and 3 base damage: it's not strange to roll 3 successes (damage 5) against only 4 points of armor... a watatsumi shot could do the rest.

Another option I have thought is, once engaged into close combat, to attack another objective randomly, disengaging with a mobility roll. It's a bit strange since an animal like a xenomorph would attack the same objective once engaged, but it's a way to break their strategy.
 
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HyveMynd
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Re: Close combat and xenomorphs

Tue 10 Dec 2019, 11:47

What game mode and what scenario are you playing? You mention there's always one "brave character" because of agendas, so I'm curious about the type of game you're playing.

Also, you say that your players (and you) have watched a lot of horror movies, so know not to split the party. But what about the characters? Do they know not to do that? While you play the characters, they have different knowledge and experience from the players.

Mechanically, it looks like Blocking removes one of the attacker's die per success. So it's possible a PC can reduce a xenomorph's attack to nothing if they get lucky. The PC has to be carrying a weapon or object capable of blocking, and they have to declare they are blocking before the attack is rolled. Plus, blocking counts as an action for the turn. If the PC used both their actions already, they can't block. If they haven't taken actions yet, each block reduces the number of actions they can take later. With xenomorphs usually acting twice in a round, they have four actions to the PCs' two; overwhelm them.

Tactics-wise, most xenomorphs aren't dumb. If the PCs get a better initiative and it looks like they're going to use the same trick, have the xenomorph run. WIth the Sprint special rules and their Speed 2, they should be able to escape easily. They have a high Mobility, so have a good chance of escaping even if engaged. Have the thing disappear, force the PCs to use up the battery on their motion tracker, then set up another sneak attack.

Hell, xenomorphs don't show up on any scans, and motion trackers will only reveal them if they're moving. Have the thing go absolutely still once it's out of visual range. Then ambush the PCs from the ceiling or beneath the floor. Catch them in an air duct where they can't shoot past each other.

Or gang up on them.
 
Jonbertsch
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Re: Close combat and xenomorphs

Tue 10 Dec 2019, 11:50

Maybe don’t let them block with a cutting torch? Rules for blocking say you must have a “sturdy weapon or tool”. I have a hard time picturing someone successfully blocking a xenomorph attack with a small handheld tool.
 
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HyveMynd
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Re: Close combat and xenomorphs

Tue 10 Dec 2019, 11:53

Maybe don’t let them block with a cutting torch? Rules for blocking say you must have a “sturdy weapon or tool”. I have a hard time picturing someone successfully blocking a xenomorph attack with a small handheld tool.
Good point.
 
decanox
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Re: Close combat and xenomorphs

Tue 10 Dec 2019, 12:23

What game mode and what scenario are you playing? You mention there's always one "brave character" because of agendas, so I'm curious about the type of game you're playing.

Also, you say that your players (and you) have watched a lot of horror movies, so know not to split the party. But what about the characters? Do they know not to do that? While you play the characters, they have different knowledge and experience from the players.
I am not doing any spoiler here... The two cinematic scenarios have obvious "brave" characters: Cham in Chariots of the Gods (Close Combat 7 dice) and Hirsch in Hope's Last Day (Close Combat 8 dice), if they add some stress, they can throw 10 or 11 dice. They only have to go first in the "expedition group" armed with a cutting torch...

And about what characters know... I know and you are right, but it's always difficult to separate character from player. They try to do their best but it's impossible to forget the Alien movies. In game terms is not strange that they don't want to split the group anyway, they are entering a derelict ship or an empty base so I allow to do so (not splitting the group).

Anyway thanks for your opinions. I will try attacking other members or some tactical retreat with mobility. I don't want to play GM as an enemy of the players but a Drone or a Neomorph shouldn't be killed in a combat round so easily.
 
EzMad
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Re: Close combat and xenomorphs

Tue 10 Dec 2019, 17:12

What game mode and what scenario are you playing? You mention there's always one "brave character" because of agendas, so I'm curious about the type of game you're playing.

Also, you say that your players (and you) have watched a lot of horror movies, so know not to split the party. But what about the characters? Do they know not to do that? While you play the characters, they have different knowledge and experience from the players.
I am not doing any spoiler here... The two cinematic scenarios have obvious "brave" characters: Cham in Chariots of the Gods (Close Combat 7 dice) and Hirsch in Hope's Last Day (Close Combat 8 dice), if they add some stress, they can throw 10 or 11 dice. They only have to go first in the "expedition group" armed with a cutting torch...

And about what characters know... I know and you are right, but it's always difficult to separate character from player. They try to do their best but it's impossible to forget the Alien movies. In game terms is not strange that they don't want to split the group anyway, they are entering a derelict ship or an empty base so I allow to do so (not splitting the group).

Anyway thanks for your opinions. I will try attacking other members or some tactical retreat with mobility. I don't want to play GM as an enemy of the players but a Drone or a Neomorph shouldn't be killed in a combat round so easily.
Try to make situations where the characters have to split up. Also, although there are no official rules, consider giving penalties for shooting into close combat. There should be after all.
 
Riggswolfe
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Re: Close combat and xenomorphs

Tue 10 Dec 2019, 17:19

It sounds to me like your players are doing some metagame stuff here. They know not to split up. They know what a xenomorph is. Their characters don't. As a GM I'd be calling them out on that. Take the derelict ship. The PCs have ZERO reason to suspect they'll run into any problems on a ship that is drifting quietly in space. The characters only thoughts should be "Let's do our job and get out and hopefully make some money."

The Captain in the Chariot of the Gods should be sending Cham and Rye to check on engineering and heading to Mother with Wilson while sending Davis to check on the bridge. If the Captain is playing genre appropriate.  Or something similar. At the least they should split into 2 teams. For one thing, they need the air on as soon as possible. Don't forget about air supply rolls! 

That's my first issue with this scenario. My second issue is that blocking with a cutting torch shouldn't happen. The cutting torch is quite small. Rewatch the scenes in Aliens when they use it. It's about the size of one of those little price checker guns they use in supermarkets. There is no way you could block a Xenomorph attack with that. It'd be like blocking it with a stapler or something.

Also don't forget about stress and panic. According to the rules, when you're attacked by a strange alien creature you've never seen before you must immediately make a panic roll. Are you making them do this?

Honestly though, the biggest problem to me is that your players aren't role playing to the genre. They're thinking like genre aware players and not like their characters who have no reason to expect an alien monstrosity is going to jump out and try to kill them.

Edit: Also, don't forget on acid splash it's not a one round thing. It keeps "attacking" every round, halving the dice each time. On average dice rolls acid splash is a death sentence a lot of times.

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