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Re: Love the work put into this

Posted: Mon 11 Nov 2019, 20:42
by FiendishlyInventive
I think the thematic quality if the creature is much more important, that being it being generally immutable and nothing strays far from the original design. (Alien 1979) Apart from the addition of the Royal Caste. (Aliens 1986) finishing the lifecycle, and finally taking a amount of DNA from the host- for environmental purposes- not enough to corrupt the original strain. (Alien³ 1992)

And it's safe to say, considering the majority's reception to AR, and the AR/AVP/AVPR Alien designs- people don't like the design straying far from the original perfect organism.

Re: Love the work put into this

Posted: Tue 12 Nov 2019, 00:41
by Diego
I partially agree, but down that line is the argument that frankly the queen shouldn't have been added. Needing one rather than egg morphing is implementing a design flaw into the 'perfect organism'. I would also point out that while the reception to the awful avp films was frankly deserving of the quality of those films, generally the reception of the fans to the EU universe by dark horse was overwhelmingly popular, enough to span four collections that didn't even include everything done. In a setting where the true villain is corporate greed there is a story to be told of how that corporate greed makes something darkly nightmarish into something befitting it's own image.

Re: Love the work put into this

Posted: Tue 12 Nov 2019, 03:56
by FiendishlyInventive
Yeah, that last part is the original 1979 Alien.
And I disagree that it's a design flaw, it allows more Aliens to be created per host- rather than requiring a host to Ovomorph to create the Egg, to create the Facehugger to infect another host. Within the first three films, it is perfect IMO.

Re: Love the work put into this

Posted: Tue 12 Nov 2019, 11:54
by Diego
Glad to know km not the only one that likes alien 3. Save for the plan to get the creature in the foundry it was a great film.

Still a bit iffy on the queen however. They take a whole load of room to house and while webbed up are kinda vulnerable. Plus from an immersion perspective I am left thinking that if they are going to squirt out eggs from a sack they must eat people and then your not getting any more eggs for your buck, may as well just ovimorphed someone.

This is why moment you include the queen from aliens you may as well open up to more of the EU stuff. The science is already wonky as all hell.

Re: Love the work put into this

Posted: Tue 12 Nov 2019, 15:46
by FiendishlyInventive
I agree to disagree, plenty of termites reproduce via a Queen that can lay absurd amounts of Eggs without much nutrition.
The Egglayer acts as a device for this, and co-ordination between the hive. Anything else beyond that is redundant.

Re: Love the work put into this

Posted: Tue 12 Nov 2019, 19:51
by Diego
I agree to disagree, plenty of termites reproduce via a Queen that can lay absurd amounts of Eggs without much nutrition.
The Egglayer acts as a device for this, and co-ordination between the hive. Anything else beyond that is redundant.
Conservation of mass, you produce 2T of eggs you need 2T of material. Termites work because the queen sits there while the drones act as a conveyor belt, but makes no more eggs than material is provided. A more perfect orgasm like the original Alien does better, it immobilizes a source of nutrition and triggers (seemingly by enzyme action) a morphing process into an egg which it doesn't seem to have to sit and watch it just happens. Creatures is always mobile and totally self sufficient. Either way, we shall agree to disagree, though it is nice having someone as passionate about the franchise to talk to as yourself.

Re: Love the work put into this

Posted: Wed 13 Nov 2019, 02:32
by aramis
Glad to know km not the only one that likes alien 3. Save for the plan to get the creature in the foundry it was a great film.
the
Still a bit iffy on the queen however. They take a whole load of room to house and while webbed up are kinda vulnerable. Plus from an immersion perspective I am left thinking that if they are going to squirt out eggs from a sack they must eat people and then your not getting any more eggs for your buck, may as well just ovimorphed someone. 
Unless the Queen doesn't need a viable host, just biomass, in which case, the queen is pumping out a bunch of the same kind. Ovomorphs provide a chance for random genetic trait jumping (this actually happens with bacteria!) from genome to genome; the queen is a straight replicator being fed biomass, providing for a uniform brood once a successful stage 1 survives long enough to become a queen stage. (At that point, there are probably a dozen strains, and the strongest is likely to become the queen.)
The two existing in the same organism are not all that unrealistic, either; several species on earth have multiple morphological stages, with two or more stages being breeders of different kinds. A number of fish are born neuter, grow to become one gender, and a handful in the school become the opposite gender; Several lizards are capable of parthenogenisis and sexual reproduction, and have gestational temperature triggered gender. A few wasps are individually capable breeders but do have a more productive queen type, albeit the queen is not a separate stage, but a different adult stage.

Re: Love the work put into this

Posted: Wed 13 Nov 2019, 03:28
by Diego
Actually the genetic drift, if it's going to take place, will happen doing the development of the parasite inside the host, not from how you make the egg. When I eat protein it does not matter if I eat plant or animal protein, my body will strip it down into it's core components and reassemble it into the protein I desire. It would likely be the same with the egg that when an Alien ovimorphs someone it is literally breaking them down into core components that are needed to form the face hugger. To that end the Queen does nothing different, just eats and makes eggs.

The actual main function of the queen and the one good reason to have them, is that they do provide a central intelligence. That's what you have to weigh up at the end of the day. Which is more frightening. A sole creature that can lone wolf, perfect in itself, alien and unknoweable. Or whether what is more threatening is the idea of parasitic ants, led by a single consciousness (in short, very borg). Each has it's merits, both are right and I can see both working at the gaming table.

Re: Love the work put into this

Posted: Wed 13 Nov 2019, 03:48
by FiendishlyInventive
A sole creature is ultimately more frightening to me, but I don't see why a central hive mind can't exist at the same time, to connect to for information- while the individual acts on it's own accord.

And as far as the film series is concerned, the Alien doesn't require food whatsoever- just incubation.

Re: Love the work put into this

Posted: Wed 13 Nov 2019, 10:07
by aramis
And as far as the film series is concerned, the Alien doesn't require food whatsoever- just incubation.
That doesn't track....
The facehugger implants a small packet. That grows, but doesn't become visible until it bursts out; since what comes out is significantly bigger, if it didn't need food, it would be a growth that would become visible; instead, it keeps the volume within the host stable as it grows; that mass goes somewhere... into the critter.

While we don't see the juveniles or adults eat, per se, we do see attacks that use mouthparts capable of consumption.  We don't need to see them eating to reasonably conclude they do.  We can make a reasonable assumption that they also need some things outside our normal biomaterials...