I always try to put the agency in the players hand so I would always make them lead on the scouting or insight roll, unless it really needs to be done in secret, which means there are rare occasions when they cannot push.
But, insight and scouting do not generally lead to injury to the player characters, whereas a bad parry roll could, so it is more important for the GM to be flexible in how this is handled.
For dodges and parries it seems perfectly reasonable to allow a player to push one of these rolls as it does specifically use an action but more importantly it is an active player choice, scout and insight are mainly instinctive and passive reactions to things happening to the character. For me that is where the distinction comes from active vs passive.
Dodge and parry also seem perfectly viable things to also use Pride on as it is something a PC could be very good at doing and relevant to thier character back story.
Ultimately, as it is unclear, it is the GM'S call but whilst making the decision you need to consider a) what mechanics become broken if this is aĺlowed and b) what is actually most fun for the GM, players, and the game.
Re: Can you push Dodge and Parry?
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- 9littlebees
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Re: Can you push Dodge and Parry?
I completely agree with Fenhorn on this, though you shouldn't need an official ruling for these grey areas. Just go with what works in your head (and your table) and move on.
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- Derp_Stevenson
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Re: Can you push Dodge and Parry?
It's easy to see attack and parry/dodge as opposed rolls, which would mean you cannot push the parry/dodge. However, I think because they're special reactive actions, and the game explicitly doesn't mention them in the opposed rolls section (it mentions stealth and manipulate), I think they're meant to be slightly different.
The way we do it is the attacker declares their attack, you have to declare whether you're parrying/dodging, then the attacker gets to decide if they're going to push, then the defender gets to decide if they're going to push, but without knowing how many successes the attacker has until it's all resolved.
Without letting dodge/parry be pushed, the game is less interesting to me, because letting them be pushed means your STR/AGI/weapon/shield are all risking damage if you push it, which adds in more risk/reward in the middle of combat which is fun for our table.
The way we do it is the attacker declares their attack, you have to declare whether you're parrying/dodging, then the attacker gets to decide if they're going to push, then the defender gets to decide if they're going to push, but without knowing how many successes the attacker has until it's all resolved.
Without letting dodge/parry be pushed, the game is less interesting to me, because letting them be pushed means your STR/AGI/weapon/shield are all risking damage if you push it, which adds in more risk/reward in the middle of combat which is fun for our table.
Re: Can you push Dodge and Parry?
We are pushing the dodge and parry rolls and it is quite fun. Sometimes they self-inflict more damage than the attack... sometimes they hope to break themselves so they don't suffer critical effect. Which is meta play, but we can't get away completely from it.
Re: Can you push Dodge and Parry?
Hello!It is not spelled out directly (it probably should) but if you read the combat chapter you will get an understanding how it is meant to work. It helps of course to know where the idea for this rule comes from (MYZ).Is this stated somewhere explicitly, as in the Reactions section it is mentioned only reactive action, not rolls.You can push those rolls because they are reaction rolls not opposed rolls in that sense.
In a normal opposed roll, the "defender" is passive, he spends no action doing so, so he can't push his roll either. In combat, the defender do spend an action dodging or parrying. He is also active.
So, the rules say that Dodge and Parry are called reactive actions because they break the initiative order but still counts towards your two actions for the round. This means that both the attacker and the defender are active during an attack. The defender just happens to do this not on his normal initiative turn. If we look at social conflicts, one of the few non-combat actions that you can do in a conflict that is also an opposed roll, the rules state that it only counts as an action for the "attacker", not for the "defender".
When it comes to Dodge and Parry, the defender is actively doing something and if you actively doing something it makes sense that you also can push yourself. If someone is just scouting and he happens to be sneak attacked for example, he is not actively doing something, so it is logical that he is not able to push. He doesn't know that he will be sneak attacked in a moment so why would he all of a sudden start to focus extra hard on his scouting (or whatever pushing scouting would be).
This is just my interpretation of this of course. If you don't like your players to push dodge and parry, don't let them. Although, a very lethal game will be a hell of a lot more lethal if you don't.
Fenhorn's interpretation above is the intended one. Parrying and dodging are technically not opposed rolls, as they require an action on part of the defender. You can push a Parry/Dodge - this is also a one way to potentially damage your shield or weapon.
I agree that this should have been clearer in the rules, sorry about that.
Fria Ligan
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