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Tomas
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Re: Lethal magic

Sat 19 May 2018, 21:46

We will have another look at this and tone down the misfire just a little bit. :)
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Blatifagus
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Re: Lethal magic

Sat 19 May 2018, 22:32

We will have another look at this and tone down the misfire just a little bit. :)
Appreciate it, but please keep the mishap table. It's awesome.
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Erzaad
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Re: Lethal magic

Sat 19 May 2018, 23:24

Cool!
 
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lupex
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Re: Lethal magic

Sat 19 May 2018, 23:48

We will have another look at this and tone down the misfire just a little bit. :)
I think reducing the risk for lower rank spells if you have a higher tier talent will help mitigate the risk. Also, maybe reintroduce the different levels of mishap results for multiple (skulls) but tied to the new mishap table?
 
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Klas
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Re: Lethal magic

Sun 20 May 2018, 01:09

Magic, generally speaking, is an unfair advantage in most games. In FbL too there is no real way to resist magic for non-casters. There are no generic soaking rolls and only sometimes specific ones for each spell. When that blood mage reaches lvl 2 (which can be arranged already at PC creation) they can boil the blood of opponents with impunity.
 
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Erzaad
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Re: Lethal magic

Sun 20 May 2018, 01:56

Worded that way, magic sounds awesome in FbL. Having no counter is a great point. I just worry that mechanically it could be less fun for players that chose spellcasters over mundane characters if their main feature feels sufficiently restricted. It'd be as if you just had no talents at all and you'd be better off playing something else. Like I said, I think the table just needs to be a little less harsh (specifically the 66 result), so I'm glad Tomas said they'll tone it down a bit. :) Misfires can be fun and exciting, but losing a character due to one bad roll never is. At least with the fatal critical injuries, if you've managed to take enough damage to trigger the roll, you deserve to potentially die. Whereas I could have a player roll up a Sorcerer and instantly die/disappear session 1 on the first spell they cast while still perfectly healthy.
 
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Blatifagus
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Re: Lethal magic

Sun 20 May 2018, 12:03

Magic, generally speaking, is an unfair advantage in most games. In FbL too there is no real way to resist magic for non-casters. There are no generic soaking rolls and only sometimes specific ones for each spell. When that blood mage reaches lvl 2 (which can be arranged already at PC creation) they can boil the blood of opponents with impunity.
Yes, and someone with AXE FIGHTER can give people critical injuries with impunity (mostly). Without having to spend WP.

Yes, magic has the potential to be deadly. But every spell require the expenditure of WP, which renders them fairly rare. If your main purpose is to kill your opponents at a distance, you're better off with a bow and arrow.

But if you look at it from a narrative point of view, how likely is it that a sorcerer/druid would risk his own life in order to cast a spell? I certainly wouldn't. With the rules as they are now, it would be like playing russian roulette in order to administer an aspirin (a Druid casting HEALING HANDS or CLEANSE SPIRIT with only 1 WP has a 1 in 6 chance for a mishap).

If you want to cast a spell with more than 1 WP the risk gets even higher, making all spellcasting more or less suicidal. With the rules as they are now I'd never play a druid or sorcerer. Why bother?
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Fenhorn
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Re: Lethal magic

Sun 20 May 2018, 13:08

I have played HârnMaster for over 15 years and the HM magic system is pretty much a trial and error when it comes to magic (with a small chance of instantly kill you and probably your friends). When we have played HM, no character (friend, foe or bystander) has died because of a so called critical failure. My brother once killed a players dog with fire because of a critical failure but that is about it. Sure the chance of a failure is not as high as in FbL (around 15%-8% in HM, depending on mastery). One reason that not so many bad things happened is that the players knew about the risks and the players didn't want to take unnecessary risks to for example heal an injury. Perhaps if the patient is dying from infection, but even then, there are medicins for that.

In FbL, most of the things on the mishap table is manageable The results of 11-46 are very manageable. Even the 51-65 results are actually quite manageable, leaving the result of 66 as the only one that isn't manageable.

I don't think my players will have any problem playing druid or sorcerer. They will probably only casts spells if the situation really needs it and use skills and their other talents the rest of the times (hm, good that the game is a skill-driven system then). But my players are also used to play spellcasters with systems that are dangerous.
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utterkungen
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Re: Lethal magic

Sun 20 May 2018, 15:04

Yes, and someone with AXE FIGHTER can give people critical injuries with impunity (mostly). Without having to spend WP.
This is true, but a spell caster can utilize the Axe Fighter talent same as any other profession. Spell casting should be looked at through the lens of comparing Kin Talents to one another, not by comparing Kin Talents to General Talents. With that in mind, Sorcerer is the only profession that has the ability to instantly break a target with a Level 1 talent. Druids are the only profession that can instantly heal any damage with a Level 1 talent. A Minstrel with Path of the Hymn, while similar to the Druid's heals, requires the target to already be Broken. I don't consider the Healing skill to be relevant here because it can't be used in combat.
If you want to cast a spell with more than 1 WP the risk gets even higher, making all spellcasting more or less suicidal. With the rules as they are now I'd never play a druid or sorcerer. Why bother?
Spellcasting is very powerful, so it should come with inherent risk. Saying that anything cast above a Power Level 1 is suicidal is a bit dramatic. The only mishap that is an instant killer is a roll of 66. No matter the number of 1's rolled during a spell casting you only ever roll once on the Magic Mishap table. I think this is pretty balanced.
I would be on board for a system that gives players the ability to mitigate risk, but I think it should be limited. I don't want to run into a situation where a PC says they want to cast a level 1 Healing Hands 4 times in a row at power level 1 because they are a Talent Level 3 Healing Druid and the risk of casting Rank 1 Power Level 1 spells has been completely removed. Same for being able to cast a power level 1 Horrify turn after turn with no risk to themselves.
 
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Re: Lethal magic

Wed 28 Nov 2018, 12:19

Ok, after a quick peruse I think I've worked out how you can minimise spell casting risk early on for certain spells. You will need:
  • Relevant spell casting Talent at Level 2 (you can get this at character generation)
  • A scroll or grimoire of the spell you want to cast (you can create one of these after you've cast the spell once)
  • ingredients as listed in the spell e.g. Healing herbs
So, to cast a Rank 1 spell e.g. Healing Hands:
  • Use the grimoire to reduce the Rank of the spell by 1. So a Rank 1 spell becomes Rank 0 (I haven't seen anything saying you can't reduce below 1, BTW)
  • Use 2 Willpower to cast the spell at Power Level 2.
  • Normally you'd have to roll 2d now for overcharge/mishap, BUT, because your Spell Talent rank is 2 higher, you can cast safely and reduce the number of dice by 2, to zero, to get the base effect of the spell at Power Level 2. You get no overcharge, but no mishap either.
  • Using the ingredients give you +1 Power Level, so you cast at Power Level 3 (this will cure a disease up to Virulence 8, for example)
Takes a bit of set up, you have to have the Talent at at least Rank 2, prepare a scroll and have some ingredients, but not too bad. If you are prepared to take a bit of risk you could cast at PL 3, rolling 1d for overcharge/mishap and get PL 4 which will cure any disease up to Virulence 11. If you are lucky on the 1d you might even get PL 5 (3 from PL, +1 for overcharge, +1 for ingredients).

ta-da! (Assuming I've got it right!)

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