User avatar
9littlebees
Posts: 530
Joined: Sat 18 Feb 2017, 14:22
Location: Rural Germany
Contact:

Re: Spending XP

Fri 05 Jan 2018, 19:11

Interesting...  Edge of the Empire (Star Wars RPG) has similarly costing skills and talents, but there is an incentive to upgrade talents, since the talent trees are the only route to upgrading your base attributes.  I like this a lot.  Skills can always be improved, but there is always a huge draw to invest in talents.  

My Year Zero hack will be Career-based (think WFRP), so I can basically dictate the maximum number of skill increases allowed per career.  Then I will make every upgrade cost the same.  I am also trying out various talent tree implementations to tempt players to go for talents rather than skills.

Not that this helps with RAW in Forbidden Lands, but houseruling shouldn't be too hard if you're not happy - for example, make everything cost 5XP and don't allow skills to be upgraded too often, saying that your players need to choose at least one talent in between each skill upgrade.
 
User avatar
9littlebees
Posts: 530
Joined: Sat 18 Feb 2017, 14:22
Location: Rural Germany
Contact:

Re: Spending XP

Fri 05 Jan 2018, 19:13

That is always an option but I thought that I would start by giving my feedback on the Alpha rules, prompt a discussion and see if things change in the rules.  House-ruling is a last resort for me, I would rather try to have the RAW changed to match the style of play that I am looking for.
Ninja'd me!  It's definitely worth giving feedback, since it's still in Alpha.  I also was a little surprised at this change from MY0, but ultimately don't have an issue with it.
 
User avatar
King_Kull
Posts: 369
Joined: Wed 22 Feb 2017, 16:11

Re: Spending XP

Fri 05 Jan 2018, 19:14


But it would encourage players to buy specialisms over increasing thier main skills, to be honest I think the difference between 3xp for a +1 specialist vs 5xp for +1 skill means players will generally still buy the 5xp skill increase more often than not. A +2 specialism makes it a bit more inviting (I agree a +6 for level 3 might be a bit much but I can't say how often that would become an issue?)

An additional reason for keeping it at 5xp for talents is for accounting and compatability purposes, if I am going to be playing the other Fria Ligan settings and also FbL then I don't want to have to keep checking the different XP costs for the same type of upgrade, and neither will my players.
Then change the rules as you see them fit in your style. Simple and easy.
That is always an option but I thought that I would start by giving my feedback on the Alpha rules, prompt a discussion and see if things change in the rules. House-ruling is a last resort for me, I would rather try to have the RAW changed to match the style of play that I am looking for.
I think I like the rules for XPs as they are. But I have to confess I have no experience with the system.
I am king!
 
User avatar
lupex
Posts: 590
Joined: Sun 08 Oct 2017, 13:16

Re: Spending XP

Fri 05 Jan 2018, 19:21


Then change the rules as you see them fit in your style. Simple and easy.
That is always an option but I thought that I would start by giving my feedback on the Alpha rules, prompt a discussion and see if things change in the rules. House-ruling is a last resort for me, I would rather try to have the RAW changed to match the style of play that I am looking for.
I think I like the rules for XPs as they are. But I have to confess I have no experience with the system.
I only have experience from reading through Coriolis (which my lovely wife got me for Xmas), and I just picked up MYZ, so it was a surprise to see the change for XP costs in the Alpha rules for FbL. I am sure it will be fine either way and if the change sticks then it is something we would get used to.
 
User avatar
lupex
Posts: 590
Joined: Sun 08 Oct 2017, 13:16

Re: Spending XP

Fri 05 Jan 2018, 19:29

Interesting...  Edge of the Empire (Star Wars RPG) has similarly costing skills and talents, but there is an incentive to upgrade talents, since the talent trees are the only route to upgrading your base attributes.  I like this a lot.  Skills can always be improved, but there is always a huge draw to invest in talents.  

My Year Zero hack will be Career-based (think WFRP), so I can basically dictate the maximum number of skill increases allowed per career.  Then I will make every upgrade cost the same.  I am also trying out various talent tree implementations to tempt players to go for talents rather than skills.

Not that this helps with RAW in Forbidden Lands, but houseruling shouldn't be too hard if you're not happy - for example, make everything cost 5XP and don't allow skills to be upgraded too often, saying that your players need to choose at least one talent in between each skill upgrade.
I have played EotE since the beta was released and it's a great game, and the careers and specialisations all make sense and fit the setting well. I also picked up Genesys in December, the generic version of the system, I was originally thinking that I could use the fantasy setting for playing in the Forbidden Lands but a) it's a lot of work to convert everything across, especially as we don't have the full setting for FbL yet, and b)one of my players expressed a preference for having a unique system linked to a setting, and not wanting to play Star Wars mk2. Which messes with my plans to get either Coriolis or MYZ to the table.
 
User avatar
Eldhierta
Posts: 368
Joined: Thu 19 Feb 2015, 10:39

Re: Spending XP

Fri 05 Jan 2018, 22:17


That is always an option but I thought that I would start by giving my feedback on the Alpha rules, prompt a discussion and see if things change in the rules. House-ruling is a last resort for me, I would rather try to have the RAW changed to match the style of play that I am looking for.
I think I like the rules for XPs as they are. But I have to confess I have no experience with the system.
I only have experience from reading through Coriolis (which my lovely wife got me for Xmas), and I just picked up MYZ, so it was a surprise to see the change for XP costs in the Alpha rules for FbL. I am sure it will be fine either way and if the change sticks then it is something we would get used to.
Well, FbL rules are an evolution of the MYZ rules. Talents are no longer single buyouts but tiered and as such not as powerful per purchase and I guess that explains the change in cost as well. I welcome it, because I think it will entice players to specialize since they can become better att two slimmer aspects for (nearly) the cost of a general skill-increase (5XP vs 6XP). Why be good with both axes and swords when you really just wanna use one of them? I think it will create diverse groups of PCs instead of generic copies.
 
User avatar
lupex
Posts: 590
Joined: Sun 08 Oct 2017, 13:16

Re: Spending XP

Fri 05 Jan 2018, 22:30


I think I like the rules for XPs as they are. But I have to confess I have no experience with the system.
I only have experience from reading through Coriolis (which my lovely wife got me for Xmas), and I just picked up MYZ, so it was a surprise to see the change for XP costs in the Alpha rules for FbL.  I am sure it will be fine either way and if the change sticks then it is something we would get used to.
Well, FbL rules are an evolution of the MYZ rules. Talents are no longer single buyouts but tiered and as such not as powerful per purchase and I guess that explains the change in cost as well. I welcome it, because I think it will entice players to specialize since they can become better att two slimmer aspects for (nearly) the cost of a general skill-increase (5XP vs 6XP). Why be good with both axes and swords when you really just wanna use one of them? I think it will create diverse groups of PCs instead of generic copies.
I am picking up that maybe you play MYZ?  If yes, do you think this change works and is appropriate for the talents of this version of the rules, are they all slightly underpowered at the lower tier to make the 3XP cost appropriate?

As I said I haven't actually played MYZ and can't compare talents due to not reading Swedish  ;)
 
User avatar
Fragpuss
Posts: 79
Joined: Sun 23 Jul 2017, 14:02

Re: Spending XP

Fri 05 Jan 2018, 23:03

I'm shooting from the hip somewhat at this stage, I may change my mind completely once I see the full set of talents in context alongside the combat system, etc. but here goes:

I definitely agree with Lupex on cost. I'd prefer to see consistency in the skill/talent costs at 5XP (as is done in Coriolis) for administrative purposes. 

Coriolis also has single level talents, with quite a few that give a +2 bonus (often in specific circumstances though) and I quite like that simplicity. For me there are two issues with the +1/+2/+3 tiers, the first is practical (and, yes pretty weak and a bit OCD, I know :geek:) - If you're just adding dice to the pool, you may end up having to pad out your nice shiny set of custom dice quite quickly. The second is more important, it just feels a bit 'vanilla', I'd hoped to see something a bit more flavourful - using talents to alter the mechanics, not just padding skill scores. 

As an example, for a 'swordsmanship' talent I'd like to see something like a +2 for the first level (or better still add a d8 rather than 2d6) and at higher levels either a bonus action like a free parry attempt or quick attack (assuming combat has the same sort of Action Point mechanic as Coriolis), access to special manoeuvres or maybe the ability to ignore/re-roll one 'skull' if you push a roll.

Looking forward to getting to grips with the rest of the translation.
 
User avatar
Eldhierta
Posts: 368
Joined: Thu 19 Feb 2015, 10:39

Re: Spending XP

Sat 06 Jan 2018, 02:07


I only have experience from reading through Coriolis (which my lovely wife got me for Xmas), and I just picked up MYZ, so it was a surprise to see the change for XP costs in the Alpha rules for FbL.  I am sure it will be fine either way and if the change sticks then it is something we would get used to.
Well, FbL rules are an evolution of the MYZ rules. Talents are no longer single buyouts but tiered and as such not as powerful per purchase and I guess that explains the change in cost as well. I welcome it, because I think it will entice players to specialize since they can become better att two slimmer aspects for (nearly) the cost of a general skill-increase (5XP vs 6XP). Why be good with both axes and swords when you really just wanna use one of them? I think it will create diverse groups of PCs instead of generic copies.
I am picking up that maybe you play MYZ?  If yes, do you think this change works and is appropriate for the talents of this version of the rules, are they all slightly underpowered at the lower tier to make the 3XP cost appropriate?

As I said I haven't actually played MYZ and can't compare talents due to not reading Swedish  ;)
Well, I kind of think that a lot of the talents in Coriolis and MYZ are quite situational and a lot of the time they aren't worth the investment of XP since it would be put to better use increasing your skills. Therefore I think that the tiered design of FbL with cheaper talents is a better way to go. You could wait for the raw power of a skill-up or you could spend less to get specialized knowledge and carve yourself a niche. Some talents in MYZ are DEFINITELY worth 5XP though, especially the talents that change the attribute that you use for certain skills, but those talents are conspicuously missing from FbL. For balancing purposes, I guess.

That being said, I agree that tiers that just give +1/+2/+3 are incredibly dull. Talents allowing die to be exchanged for a higher tier would be a better choice, I think.
 
User avatar
lupex
Posts: 590
Joined: Sun 08 Oct 2017, 13:16

Re: Spending XP

Sat 06 Jan 2018, 12:09

I'm shooting from the hip somewhat at this stage, I may change my mind completely once I see the full set of talents in context alongside the combat system, etc. but here goes:

I definitely agree with Lupex on cost. I'd prefer to see consistency in the skill/talent costs at 5XP (as is done in Coriolis) for administrative purposes. 

Coriolis also has single level talents, with quite a few that give a +2 bonus (often in specific circumstances though) and I quite like that simplicity. For me there are two issues with the +1/+2/+3 tiers, the first is practical (and, yes pretty weak and a bit OCD, I know :geek:) - If you're just adding dice to the pool, you may end up having to pad out your nice shiny set of custom dice quite quickly. The second is more important, it just feels a bit 'vanilla', I'd hoped to see something a bit more flavourful - using talents to alter the mechanics, not just padding skill scores. 

As an example, for a 'swordsmanship' talent I'd like to see something like a +2 for the first level (or better still add a d8 rather than 2d6) and at higher levels either a bonus action like a free parry attempt or quick attack (assuming combat has the same sort of Action Point mechanic as Coriolis), access to special manoeuvres or maybe the ability to ignore/re-roll one 'skull' if you push a roll.

Looking forward to getting to grips with the rest of the translation.
I agree with all of the above, it would be great if a tier 3 talent allowed you to roll a D12 instead of a D6, you could then describe yourself as a legendary swordsman, or legendary rogue etc.
GZIP: Off