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Sherman
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Can you push Dodge and Parry?

Sun 07 Apr 2019, 08:36

Easy question, can you push the Dodge and Parry actions?

pg. 40 under Opposed Rolls: "Only you (the attacker) can push your roll."

This seems decisive, but at the same time, it's not mentioned anywhere in the Dodge/Parry rules, or anywhere in the combat section that I see. I've also talked about pushing these rolls on other topics and never been corrected. It seems like a really important thing to not be super clear on. Do Dodge and Parry somehow not qualify as Opposed Rolls even though they work the same?
 
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Valyar
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Re: Can you push Dodge and Parry?

Sun 07 Apr 2019, 09:27

As they are opposed - no. This is also how I read the rules, here at least it is not that vague.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Can you push Dodge and Parry?

Sun 07 Apr 2019, 10:00

You can push those rolls because they are reaction rolls not opposed rolls in that sense.

In a normal opposed roll, the "defender" is passive, he spends no action doing so, so he can't push his roll either. In combat, the defender do spend an action dodging or parrying. He is also active.
“I’d say thistles, but nobody listens to me, anyway.” - Eeyore
 
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Valyar
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Re: Can you push Dodge and Parry?

Sun 07 Apr 2019, 10:29

You can push those rolls because they are reaction rolls not opposed rolls in that sense.

In a normal opposed roll, the "defender" is passive, he spends no action doing so, so he can't push his roll either. In combat, the defender do spend an action dodging or parrying. He is also active.
Is this stated somewhere explicitly, as in the Reactions section it is mentioned only reactive action, not rolls.
 
lupex
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Re: Can you push Dodge and Parry?

Sun 07 Apr 2019, 11:19

I don't think it is explicitely stated anywhere in the rules.

But, if you can't push a parry roll then there is little chance of ever damaging a shield by rolling a 1 on the gear dice.

I allow it on the basis that it keeps the emphasis on the players using their actions.
 
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Valyar
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Re: Can you push Dodge and Parry?

Sun 07 Apr 2019, 11:25

Indeed, the chances are reduced but you can damage it while shoving someone. I wonder if there is difference in the swedish version.
 
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pellejones
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Re: Can you push Dodge and Parry?

Sun 07 Apr 2019, 12:41

Since parry uses Melee skill and dodge use move skill you are allowed to push. The shield can hence be damaged by pushed ones.
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Can you push Dodge and Parry?

Sun 07 Apr 2019, 15:12

You can push those rolls because they are reaction rolls not opposed rolls in that sense.

In a normal opposed roll, the "defender" is passive, he spends no action doing so, so he can't push his roll either. In combat, the defender do spend an action dodging or parrying. He is also active.
Is this stated somewhere explicitly, as in the Reactions section it is mentioned only reactive action, not rolls.
It is not spelled out directly (it probably should) but if you read the combat chapter you will get an understanding how it is meant to work. It helps of course to know where the idea for this rule comes from (MYZ).
So, the rules say that Dodge and Parry are called reactive actions because they break the initiative order but still counts towards your two actions for the round. This means that both the attacker and the defender are active during an attack. The defender just happens to do this not on his normal initiative turn. If we look at social conflicts, one of the few non-combat actions that you can do in a conflict that is also an opposed roll, the rules state that it only counts as an action for the "attacker", not for the "defender".
When it comes to Dodge and Parry, the defender is actively doing something and if you actively doing something it makes sense that you also can push yourself. If someone is just scouting and he happens to be sneak attacked for example, he is not actively doing something, so it is logical that he is not able to push. He doesn't know that he will be sneak attacked in a moment so why would he all of a sudden start to focus extra hard on his scouting (or whatever pushing scouting would be).
This is just my interpretation of this of course. If you don't like your players to push dodge and parry, don't let them. Although, a very lethal game will be a hell of a lot more lethal if you don't.
“I’d say thistles, but nobody listens to me, anyway.” - Eeyore
 
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Valyar
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Re: Can you push Dodge and Parry?

Sun 07 Apr 2019, 17:42

I agree. Haven't played MYZ, but in FL I also think it should be this way.
 
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Sherman
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Re: Can you push Dodge and Parry?

Mon 08 Apr 2019, 06:09

Ok, if there is nothing official, I'm hoping for an answer on this! The rules seem clear to me that they are not something you can push, but I don't know if that's the intent, and I'm kind of guessing not.

I can't buy into "you're using an action", because that could be said of any number of circumstances. The Opposed Rolls do not mention actions at all, in fact, none of their examples use actions. You don't need an action to Manipulate or Stealth by someone, those things are done outside of combat rounds. Likewise, Insight and Scout rolls do not need actions and are also skill checks that are in no way markedly different than Melee or Dodging to oppose attacks... Having one set allowed, and the other not, doesn't seem to be suggested anywhere other than an assumed "intent".

I assume intent because this is critical to the way the game is played. One sentence far removed from the very critical part of the game where characters die, seems like a major oversight if that's not the intent. 

It's conceivable that the design did not consider Parry/Dodge to be Opposed Rolls, even though they work identically, they don't seem to use that terminology. Worth clarifying.

Also, shields should bust well before armor. I might just house rule that shields can be damaged before armor is reduced on failed armor saves. I know they're unrelated, but I don't particularly like how fast armor degrades so I might try this out regardless of whether defense rolls can be pushed.
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