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EinBein
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Re: Movement in Combat

Sat 10 Aug 2019, 20:14

I'm actually not worried about the action cap, but the fact, that you must learn a talent in order to be able to charge at a foe. This is the only thing that feels artificial to me.

For me, the talent can still be there and everything else can remain the same. Level 1 Melee Charge would still be an upgrade, because it would allow you to do the same action but without penalty.
 
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The1TrueFredrix
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Re: Movement in Combat

Sat 10 Aug 2019, 23:33

I'm actually not worried about the action cap, but the fact, that you must learn a talent in order to be able to charge at a foe. This is the only thing that feels artificial to me.

For me, the talent can still be there and everything else can remain the same. Level 1 Melee Charge would still be an upgrade, because it would allow you to do the same action but without penalty.
I disagree, but of course at your table you can do what you want 🙂

I disagree because yes, you can charge at a foe without the talent, it just costs you an action. You would prefer to keep the action and have a  -2 penalty on the roll, but I don’t think a -2 on the roll is anywhere near the equivalent cost. Think of it this way. You roll, say, a pretty poor six dice for an attack. If you learn the talent you get two attacks in a charge (to clarify - a move action and attack on your fast action, and another attack on your slow) so in total you are rolling 12 dice (before pushing). That’s pretty powerful. Somebody without the talent can still charge into combat, by moving on their fast, and attacking with their slow, but they only roll six dice. With your mod, they get to roll 10 dice. That’s too powerful. 
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fedev80
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Re: Movement in Combat

Sun 11 Aug 2019, 05:57

If you learn the talent you get two attacks in a charge (to clarify - a move action and attack on your fast action, and another attack on your slow) so in total you are rolling 12 dice (before pushing). That’s pretty powerful.
Well no, CHARGE - move and attack at once - is a slow action (see previous posts).

I wouldn't allow anyone without the talent to CHARGE though. Is not so simple as running and then hiting. You have to be able to move very fast, keeping an eye on the terrain while holding your weapon properly and watching your enemy's reaction. You have to be able to anticipate your enemy and change your approach in the last second so to hit a blow. I think is better represented as a specific skill or talent. In all other cases, you just move and then attack, with two actions.
 
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faun
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Re: Movement in Combat

Sun 11 Aug 2019, 09:51

I suggested these house rules before.
The game as written has hard caps. You get one slow action and one fast action or 2 fast actions and that is it. You are actually INCAPABLE of doing anything else. Instead, you get 1 slow and 1 fast (or 2 fast). Each additional slow action you attempt comes with a cumulative -2 difficulty penalty and each additional fast comes with a -1 difficulty penalty. So for example: I want to move forward and attack twice!
Move action (fast), 1rst attack (Slow), 2nd attack (slow -2 skill dice).
The opponent attacks you back. You attempt to parry (fast -3 skill dice (This turn you take the -2 from the second slow action and a -1 from the second fast action)).
Order of operations would be important. "I want to move twice and attack!" Move (fast), move (fast), attack (slow -2 as your first additional action).
As far as I can tell this would not negatively impact any of the Talents currently in the game as those talents give you additional actions for free or at no penalty for spending a WP. So those would still be super useful for getting more actions without penalty while still letting players attempt to defend themselves.
You don't NEED to spend WP OR suffer damage, but with the reduction of skill dice the chance of having to Push or spend WP for other perks is significantly increased and the more someone attacks you the more likely you are to fail/take damage anyway. Penalties continue to accumulate until the beginning of your next turn at which point they reset to zero. It's more interesting to give the players the choice with the risk and gamble then it is to draw a hard line in the sand or give them no other option but to pay.
You can also say a player is no longer capable of doing actions when they fail any given action. Soft caps is where it's at.
@Konungr having reffed this a number of times I'm not sure how this would play out, it the characters can do this during combat than both the monsters and the NPC combatants would do this. The battle would end essentially on the initiative draw of the strongest fighter, they would have a very large dice pool for each strike, and -2 dice for a second attack wouldn't be a big enough detriment. This is also an action that doesn't cost anything real for a character, just -2(-2,-3,-4,-5,-6)dice, no WP, no training, no path skill rank. So if I had a Giant with a 24 Str and but only an effective 10 dice mashing attack (10 for effective str) would the monster be able to make (24[22, 19, 15, 10, 4]) 6 attacks at 10 dice except the last one at 4? in addition to the rolled attack move it makes? I'm not sure this is a good rule. As a player/Ref I'd prefer to not have monsters that could so easily kill the party in one round, or that I'd have to do a lot of additional math to remember how many attacks it gets. Monsters are already tough enough. Currently Yhowith the Orc in my party has a STR6, Skill 5, 2 gear dice, and an artifact die for the weapon he is using. He could attack will 11 dice, 9 dice, 6 dice, and may even attempt the 2 dice attack, because there isn't any drawback, He usually does just fine hitting, avoiding armor, and being able to pump up the rolled damage with WP points. If I gave him all those rolls for the first round of combat he'd probably risk breaking himself a lot more just to get the will power, but the battle would be over so fast he wouldn't have to worry about it. 
TL/DR: playtest it first I don't think this is a good rule.
 
Konungr
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Re: Movement in Combat

Sun 11 Aug 2019, 20:08

I suggested these house rules before.
The game as written has hard caps. You get one slow action and one fast action or 2 fast actions and that is it. You are actually INCAPABLE of doing anything else. Instead, you get 1 slow and 1 fast (or 2 fast). Each additional slow action you attempt comes with a cumulative -2 difficulty penalty and each additional fast comes with a -1 difficulty penalty. So for example: I want to move forward and attack twice!
Move action (fast), 1rst attack (Slow), 2nd attack (slow -2 skill dice).
The opponent attacks you back. You attempt to parry (fast -3 skill dice (This turn you take the -2 from the second slow action and a -1 from the second fast action)).
Order of operations would be important. "I want to move twice and attack!" Move (fast), move (fast), attack (slow -2 as your first additional action).
As far as I can tell this would not negatively impact any of the Talents currently in the game as those talents give you additional actions for free or at no penalty for spending a WP. So those would still be super useful for getting more actions without penalty while still letting players attempt to defend themselves.
You don't NEED to spend WP OR suffer damage, but with the reduction of skill dice the chance of having to Push or spend WP for other perks is significantly increased and the more someone attacks you the more likely you are to fail/take damage anyway. Penalties continue to accumulate until the beginning of your next turn at which point they reset to zero. It's more interesting to give the players the choice with the risk and gamble then it is to draw a hard line in the sand or give them no other option but to pay.
You can also say a player is no longer capable of doing actions when they fail any given action. Soft caps is where it's at.
@Konungr having reffed this a number of times I'm not sure how this would play out, it the characters can do this during combat than both the monsters and the NPC combatants would do this. The battle would end essentially on the initiative draw of the strongest fighter, they would have a very large dice pool for each strike, and -2 dice for a second attack wouldn't be a big enough detriment. This is also an action that doesn't cost anything real for a character, just -2(-2,-3,-4,-5,-6)dice, no WP, no training, no path skill rank. So if I had a Giant with a 24 Str and but only an effective 10 dice mashing attack (10 for effective str) would the monster be able to make (24[22, 19, 15, 10, 4]) 6 attacks at 10 dice except the last one at 4? in addition to the rolled attack move it makes? I'm not sure this is a good rule. As a player/Ref I'd prefer to not have monsters that could so easily kill the party in one round, or that I'd have to do a lot of additional math to remember how many attacks it gets. Monsters are already tough enough. Currently Yhowith the Orc in my party has a STR6, Skill 5, 2 gear dice, and an artifact die for the weapon he is using. He could attack will 11 dice, 9 dice, 6 dice, and may even attempt the 2 dice attack, because there isn't any drawback, He usually does just fine hitting, avoiding armor, and being able to pump up the rolled damage with WP points. If I gave him all those rolls for the first round of combat he'd probably risk breaking himself a lot more just to get the will power, but the battle would be over so fast he wouldn't have to worry about it. 
TL/DR: playtest it first I don't think this is a good rule.
I have play tested it. It functions fine. You seem to have some misconceptions of the rule.

1) your giant example the giant would be making a 10 dice attack. If, as the GM you decided to give it extra actions like another attack that second attack would be at -2 meaning 8 dice. Difficulty is not a penalty on the attribute. It's a penalty to the dice pool. More specifically to the skill portion of the dice pool. You get the dice pool first, then apply modifiers. As the GM I wouldn't be giving every monster every attack infinitely. I would use it in moments of high tension to up the tension. Especially when in situations where the monsters/npcs could be entirely overwhelmed by the players to add some tension back in without just giving them some free extra attacks.

2) With the ork a roll with 6 dice has an average chance for 1 success and a pretty good chance for no successes. (though obviously still a chance for a bunch of successes). At 4 it is categorically worse. At 2 it's dismal. Not that the dice pool should ever actually get that low. Again, difficulty impacts skill dice. When it dips into the negative you start adding skill dice back in and their 6s counter 6s from equipment and attributes. So his attacks would be.. 6str, 5 skill, 2 equipment = 13 dice, then 11, then 9, (at this point having only a single skill dice so every other dice is at risk of breaking equipment or damaging his strength if he pushes the roll), the next would be 9 again but now that skill die is a negative dice and a 6 on it would cancel out a 6 from something else.  They could push the roll and risk damage. Good. If they want to break themselves trying to over reach for a additional success that is the gamble that they should be doing. And again, the moment a roll fails... done. No more rolls.

3) As the DM apply caps if/how you want. Many other games allow similar systems and say "The GM has final say in what can and cannot be done in a single round." So do that. A person can't run 9 times. It's beyond their physical capability to move that distance in that amount of time. Or tie it to Agility. You can make as many actions as you have agility. A person with 5 agility has at most 5 actions or until they fail an action.

As for keeping track of math. Sure. If you don't want to then don't do it. But the math of this is incredibly easy in practice.
 
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EinBein
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Re: Movement in Combat

Mon 12 Aug 2019, 20:25

[...]You have to be able to move very fast,
Not exactly. You have to move maximum 25m (short to arm's length acc. to p88) in minimum 10 sec (round acc. to p84). That is slow jogging with a leisure 5:30 min/km with enough time left to deliver a blow at the end.

keeping an eye on the terrain
Rough terrain is a different thing. There are separate rules just for this purpose.

while holding your weapon properly and watching your enemy's reaction. You have to be able to anticipate your enemy and change your approach in the last second so to hit a blow.
You make it sound like a high art :D which I don't think it is, considering history of warfare, where huge bodies of most armies where made up of untrained fighters who proved many a time that charging isn't a thing you need a Bachelor's degree for. Maybe you get better with training, but no human ever had to 'unlock' it first.

I think is better represented as a specific skill or talent. In all other cases, you just move and then attack, with two actions.
The point is, that you can't move and attack from short distance, which is kind of strange if you consider that we are talking about 25m in 10s in the worst of cases. The only thing slower is a DnD character (running only 18m in 10s with two movement actions).

I'm actually totally okay with the Charge being a talent. The only thing I will change is the fact, that you can only do it with a talent rank of 1, because that feels like an unnecessary gamedesign tax for fighters. -2 or even only -1 is still a big penalty and incentive to invest in the dedicated talent, but it makes the progression curve smoother and more believable.

Just my 2 Cents.
 
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Ebrim
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Re: Movement in Combat

Tue 13 Aug 2019, 00:49

Game design tax? With or without the talent you’re able to move and attack. With the talent you’re just better at it - like most of the talents.
 
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faun
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Re: Movement in Combat

Tue 13 Aug 2019, 02:47

7 experience doesn't seem like a heavy burden
 
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EinBein
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Re: Movement in Combat

Tue 13 Aug 2019, 22:24

Game design tax? With or without the talent you’re able to move and attack. With the talent you’re just better at it - like most of the talents.
No, not from Short, like I explained above. You can only attack from Near („a few steps away“) without the talent and this leaves you without defensive action in addition. That feels very limited to me, considering the time span of a round.

But please, be reminded, I never played the game. I just read the books and the example the OP was also criticizing and proposed a possible small adjustment to the rules in order to make them feel a bit more organic. Feel free to ignore my proposal or offer reasons why you think why they are against RAI.

PS.: 7 experience (isn‘t it just 3?) for a talent that most fighters will buy for the essential effect is still a „tax“. It‘s the role of talents/feats/whatever (from a gamedesign perspective) to offer difficult choices, not to make the choices for you.

PPS.: and please, don‘t get me wrong, but if someone asks „what‘s the most essential talents for a fighter/peddler/archer/whatever?“ and you all provide your lists, I would humbly propose to check the items that appear on every list for balancing. Otherwise, everyone is wasting points on standard talents while he could generate much more interesting characters when there are meaningful choices to be had instead.
 
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faun
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Re: Movement in Combat

Wed 14 Aug 2019, 10:00

PS.: 7 experience (isn‘t it just 3?) 
I misstated, getting a talent is normally 3, and rank 2 is an additional 6, so the total would be 9xp. this is about 2 adventures to have a 2nd rank in a new talent.

 I am currently not playing with a group that min maxes and while a couple of them have asked those type of stacking questions it usually plays out they make the choices that are fun, not the ones to max out a dice pool. We chose to roll their first characters randomly from the provided tables in L&A. The tables have a fairly broad mix of talents across a group of players. I'm looking at the L&A expansion of the tables as a way to keep that fresh for new characters in the future. I'd ask them if they had a character idea or if they wanted to roll on the chart, so at each stage they either chose or rolled. During the formative events they all rolled, but I gave them the option of forgoing one of the talents they rolled to make the path talent 2nd level. Each of them saw the benefit in that, but I still have an odd mix of talents in the group. When we're playing the group will help others when they can and in doing so they find out if there is a talent they should have to make things work better or to improve the type of character they want to play. The fighter figured out that repairing armor and weapons was very expensive, and time consuming. So he took smithing to add to his craft he already had so he could fix his metal bits. And the druid is taking tanning so he can not only do leather work but also to make more money off the forage rolls that brings in game animals.
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