Oddball_E8
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Should Swedish "Jägare" units be considered Special Ops?

Wed 08 Dec 2021, 08:20

So, I've been thinking about Värnplikt and the different military service areas available in the game.

The thing is, Sweden has a few units considered "elite units".
One group is 'Specialförbanden', which include 'Särskilda Operationsgruppen', which require some extensive service in the military IIRC.

Another group is "Jägarförbanden" which are actually available to join during your national military service, or Värnplikt. So you're going from civilian straight into these units. And they're still considered "elite units".

But I'm not sure they should be put under the "Special Operations" area of military service.
On the one hand, they are considered elite, and they do come with some of the skills that aren't available to the other service areas.
But on the other hand, they are available to anyone who joins the military service at 18 and fulfils the requirements.

I'm considering removing the requirement of "one term of service in combat arms" on Special Operations for Swedish PC's.
But I'm still not entirely sure.
 
Xeonic
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Re: Should Swedish "Jägare" units be considered Special Ops?

Wed 08 Dec 2021, 11:11

My take on this was to use the basic combat arms for Jägare, you can match the training pretty accurately if you allow the PC's to take mountaineer, ranger etc. to allow them to get that training earlier.

The Special Operations career as i see it is strictly military personnel in active service, whether on standby or in warzones.
 
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Re: Should Swedish "Jägare" units be considered Special Ops?

Wed 08 Dec 2021, 11:12

Whoa ... this is really a big question. Big part of the problem is that there is really no universal definition of "Special".

Another part of the problem is that all Jägare aren't created equal. There is considerable difference between, on the one hand, Kustjägare or Fallskärmsjägare, and on the other hand, the various types of plain Jägare that historically derived from cavalry units, or Flygbasjägare.

SOG (or FM SF in general) didn't exist in the 90's. SSG was created in 1994. SIG (the other main component in SOG) came much later. SSG was created sort of as a "Jägarförbanden 2.0" to give FM a bit more "Special" capability beyond what was available at the time — most importantly, a professional unit — in the particular sense that it is able to operate in peacetime (i.e., not consisting of conscripts, without requiring any degree of mobilisation).

This could be made into a very long dissertation, but I'll just share my conclusion that on the whole, yes, Jägare should be considered Special Forces. They are exclusively trained for short and long-term operations behind enemy lines, reconnaissance, infiltration, and sabotage. They receive training in small unit tactics, advanced hand-to-hand combat, HALO jumps (for Fallskärmsjägarna), rebreathers (for Kustjägarna), and a multitude other specialised skills that others in FM don't. (And yes, all this training is given to conscripts who will return to ordinary civilian life some months later.)
They aren't "regular" or "line" units by any definition.

What SSG does is crank all this up to eleven, and intermix skills from the different services, but on a truly fundamental level, the only thing they add is the peacetime capability.

Now ... the semantic difference between "Special Forces" and "Special Ops". I'd say Jägare are definitely SF, while SSG could definitely be called Special Ops. Would the opposite hold true? Again, YMMV.


Long story short: I'd go ahead and remove that requirement. A set of rules written mainly from the perspective of an American reality will encounter problems trying to describe the Swedish system. They aren't exactly compatible.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
Oddball_E8
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Re: Should Swedish "Jägare" units be considered Special Ops?

Wed 08 Dec 2021, 19:52

*snip*
Long story short: I'd go ahead and remove that requirement. A set of rules written mainly from the perspective of an American reality will encounter problems trying to describe the Swedish system. They aren't exactly compatible.
Yeah, I've noticed that with the problems of Värnplikt and Hemvärn.

But I'm doing workarounds for those already.

Actually considering adding a Military branch to the Education career too since Officer School is a thing and it includes some stuff that isn't part of the normal Education career.
 
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Re: Should Swedish "Jägare" units be considered Special Ops?

Thu 09 Dec 2021, 00:36

A set of rules written mainly from the perspective of an American reality will encounter problems trying to describe the Swedish system. They aren't exactly compatible.

Yeah, I've noticed that with the problems of Värnplikt and Hemvärn.

Yeah. Alas. Prime example of why, in the discussions before the Alpha, I tried to encourage not letting the Swedish setting just be a re-skin over the American/Polish setting.

Oh, well. It is what it is.

And that being the case — do you think you could collect your workarounds and house rules in a thread here? I’d be most curious to see what you’ve come up with.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
Oddball_E8
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Re: Should Swedish "Jägare" units be considered Special Ops?

Thu 09 Dec 2021, 05:30

A set of rules written mainly from the perspective of an American reality will encounter problems trying to describe the Swedish system. They aren't exactly compatible.

Yeah, I've noticed that with the problems of Värnplikt and Hemvärn.

Yeah. Alas. Prime example of why, in the discussions before the Alpha, I tried to encourage not letting the Swedish setting just be a re-skin over the American/Polish setting.

Oh, well. It is what it is.

And that being the case — do you think you could collect your workarounds and house rules in a thread here? I’d be most curious to see what you’ve come up with.
Already have, kinda.
Here's the thread about Värnplikt (you posted in that one): viewtopic.php?f=127&t=8636
Here's the thread about Hemvärnet (That still has not been resolved): viewtopic.php?f=127&t=8726

But I might make a thread with all my houserules in it at a later point.

I'm gonna talk to my boss who is a Major in Hemvärnet, and my cousin who is a Captain in Hemvärnet about possible houserules. I know that at least my cousing has tried RPG's in his youth, and my boss is smart enough to be able to figure out how it works fast enough to have a conversation about it.

And lastly, I'll most likely just add that Military branch to Education.
 
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Re: Should Swedish "Jägare" units be considered Special Ops?

Fri 10 Dec 2021, 01:31

I'm gonna talk to my boss who is a Major in Hemvärnet, and my cousin who is a Captain in Hemvärnet about possible houserules. I know that at least my cousing has tried RPG's in his youth, and my boss is smart enough to be able to figure out how it works fast enough to have a conversation about it.

I detta företagande skulle jag råda att undersöka hur förtrogna de vörda herrarna är med förhållandena i Hemvärnet på Gamle Kungens tid.

Hemvärnet of today — as indeed the rest of FM — is a fundamentally different animal from what it was thirty years ago.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
Oddball_E8
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Re: Should Swedish "Jägare" units be considered Special Ops?

Fri 10 Dec 2021, 08:22

I'm gonna talk to my boss who is a Major in Hemvärnet, and my cousin who is a Captain in Hemvärnet about possible houserules. I know that at least my cousing has tried RPG's in his youth, and my boss is smart enough to be able to figure out how it works fast enough to have a conversation about it.

I detta företagande skulle jag råda att undersöka hur förtrogna de vörda herrarna är med förhållandena i Hemvärnet på Gamle Kungens tid.

Hemvärnet of today — as indeed the rest of FM — is a fundamentally different animal from what it was thirty years ago.
Well, they're both over 50 and I think both of them have been part of HV for at least 20-30 years.
I know for sure that my boss went to Bosnia for his UN service after Värnplikten, so that'd be during the 90's. He would have joined the HV right after that.
My cousin joined sometime in the late 90's IIRC.

Either way, they both should enough insight to make some suggestions on how it might have worked back then, and how to integrate that in the game.

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