Marco Rafalà
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Question about 5th Division Location

Fri 15 Oct 2021, 15:34

This might be a stupid question but why does the map of Poland show the 5th Division in Złoczew when the game states the 5th Division was in Kalisz and got destroyed there? I'm sure I'm missing something in the books that explains this. I hoping someone can point me in the right direction. Thanks!
 
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Higgipedia
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Re: Question about 5th Division Location

Sat 16 Oct 2021, 03:48

It's not a stupid question by any stretch. It is an interesting anomaly. I wonder if that's where the Commanding General and whatever forces he was able to rally are holed up.
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Fenhorn
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Re: Question about 5th Division Location

Sat 16 Oct 2021, 09:26

That is where the the few leftovers from the 5th Division starts the campaign on their way to Germany (I think is their current plan). It is the same on the Swedish map, the leftovers from the 2nd Marine Regiment starts in Töreboda and plan to move to southwest (to Alingsås) where they think they can re-group. The players don't start there, they don't don't know about this, they know what they planned to do after the failed operations (last page of the intel), but not where they are (or any true locations).
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
Marco Rafalà
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Re: Question about 5th Division Location

Sat 16 Oct 2021, 15:31

That is where the the few leftovers from the 5th Division starts the campaign on their way to Germany (I think is their current plan). It is the same on the Swedish map, the leftovers from the 2nd Marine Regiment starts in Töreboda and plan to move to southwest (to Alingsås) where they think they can re-group. The players don't start there, they don't don't know about this, they know what they planned to do after the failed operations (last page of the intel), but not where they are (or any true locations).
But the Referee's Manual specifically states in several places that the characters begin the game near Kalisz after Soviet forces overwhelm the 5th Division.

"In Poland, the US 5th Infantry Division is pushed back and then crushed at Kalisz, the survivors fleeing into the woods." (page 9)

"What might be the final large engagement of the war took place near Kalisz, from which the characters emerge on their own." (page 11)

"The default way to start a campaign of TWILIGHT: 2000 in Poland is in the immediate aftermath of the final battle of Operation Reset close to the Polish town Kalisz, with the PCs as part of the US 5th Mechanized Infantry Division, now scattered and running for their lives." (page 31)

Since the timeline mentions 5th Division getting pushed back to Kalisz but doesn't mention from where, I'm guessing it's Złoczew since the map (which is outdated at the start of the game, I think) shows the 5th there.

As a side note, I think I found a contradiction in the game's fiction. The timeline says that Operation Reset began in early April 2000 and after about a week of NATO gains, it all went to hell, ending with the 5th getting crushed in Kalisz (page 9). But page 11 mentions Soviet forces broke the 5th Division in early July. So I ended up following the timeline and used April 14 as the start date for a campaign. We had our first game a few days ago, using Foundry. No combat yet, just shaking out the travel rules. It's been raining for 2 days straight and one of the characters now has hypothermia. One the players wrote to me: "Definitely curious to see how other parts of the system work (combat, vehicles, setting up bases) - but at this point I like our odds of just dying of exposure before any of that becomes relevant." :lol:
 
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Fenhorn
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Re: Question about 5th Division Location

Sat 16 Oct 2021, 17:04

Hm, to be honest, I haven't read it from page to page due to me being allergic to PDFs, but I have read parts of it (a whole lot more due to this thread). The last part of the intel say it was written one week after the Operation Reset began (end of April?). I thought that was when the big operation ended, but apparently not. So if the final "large engagement" (from where the the players emerge on their own) took place early July, then the the battle was a whole lot longer that I thought and also for the most part took place after that intel, an intel that is very old.
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Marco Rafalà
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Re: Question about 5th Division Location

Sat 16 Oct 2021, 18:06

Hm, to be honest, I haven't read it from page to page due to me being allergic to PDFs, but I have read parts of it (a whole lot more due to this thread). The last part of the intel say it was written one week after the Operation Reset began (end of April?). I thought that was when the big operation ended, but apparently not. So if the final "large engagement" (from where the the players emerge on their own) took place early July, then the the battle was a whole lot longer that I thought and also for the most part took place after that intel, an intel that is very old.
Operation Reset began in early April so one week out from that could be anywhere from the second or third week of the month depending on where you place "early April." That's how I read it anyway. The Situation on the last page of the Intel hand-out says, "It has been one week since the beginning of OPERATION RESET. Enemy strength has been much higher than expected, with predicted reductions to enemy unit capabilities not in evidence during the operation. Our movement to PL RED DIAMOND was uneventful; however, the assault on LODZ did not go as planned and we are currently in KALISZ after a 12-hour fighting retrograde movement from LODZ."

So I guess 5th got pushed back to Kalisz from Lodz. In that case, I'm not sure why the map shows 5th at Złoczew.
 
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Tomas
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Re: Question about 5th Division Location

Sat 16 Oct 2021, 18:16

Hello!

The July mention on RM page 11 is an error - the correct month for Reset is April.

The 5th division marking on the Poland map on RM page 14 is for the main remnants of the unit. As you can see in the Order of Battle on page 12, and in further detail on page 57, 5th division is down to 6% manpower and 4% combat vehicles - i.e. not a functioning unit at all any longer.
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Marco Rafalà
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Re: Question about 5th Division Location

Sat 16 Oct 2021, 18:38

Hello!

The July mention on RM page 11 is an error - the correct month for Reset is April.

The 5th division marking on the Poland map on RM page 14 is for the main remnants of the unit. As you can see in the Order of Battle on page 12, and in further detail on page 57, 5th division is down to 6% manpower and 4% combat vehicles - i.e. not a functioning unit at all any longer.
Thanks, Tomas! So does that mean during the Battle of Kalisz, remnants of the 5th Division retreated to Złoczew?
 
harald74
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Re: Question about 5th Division Location

Sat 23 Oct 2021, 10:39


Thanks, Tomas! So does that mean during the Battle of Kalisz, remnants of the 5th Division retreated to Złoczew?
That's the way I've played it, at least. I've used the map on page 14 to see the current locations of the different units, and let the players roam around "blind" on the travel map, gathering what intel they can to stay out of the way of the Soviets. They have no idea that the 5th Div HQ is in Zloczew, but they've recently liberated an HF radio from the Soviets and are going to rig up an antenna to try and contact US forces around the country. I've decided that the HQ is willing to talk to them on air, but since they don't have a code book, they won't divulge their location or give any orders to the PCs, as they can't verify that they are who they say they are.
 
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Higgipedia
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Re: Question about 5th Division Location

Mon 25 Oct 2021, 04:52

That's the way I've played it, at least. I've used the map on page 14 to see the current locations of the different units, and let the players roam around "blind" on the travel map, gathering what intel they can to stay out of the way of the Soviets. They have no idea that the 5th Div HQ is in Zloczew, but they've recently liberated an HF radio from the Soviets and are going to rig up an antenna to try and contact US forces around the country. I've decided that the HQ is willing to talk to them on air, but since they don't have a code book, they won't divulge their location or give any orders to the PCs, as they can't verify that they are who they say they are.
The other thing to keep in mind with the code thing is that with the division getting destroyed as completely as it has been, it is a reasonable assumption that the code book has fallen into enemy hands, so they're going to be extra paranoid about it.
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