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Vader
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Re: Finland

Sat 14 Aug 2021, 17:30

So: calling all Finns and people with insight in Finnish conditions immediately preceding the end of the Cold War, and thoughts on how these conditions might extrapolate to 1997, through a 90's not of détente, not of a drunk taking over the Kremlin, not of a dissolution of the Warsaw Pact, not of extensive cuts in Western military procurement, dismantled national security systems, and radically reduced armies, navies, and air forces; but rather of increased political tension, extensive investments, and radical military build-up.
Quick reply to this, just to make sure what the aim of the discussion is: Are you asking for a 4E campaign or a homebrew campaign idea? For a strict 4E campaign I'd argue that the Warsaw Pact has been dissolved in 1990 [sic] as it was in known history. Additionally, budget cuts to Western military procurement would have occured since they were agreed upon in or before 1990. Also, the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact, the Westernization of former Eastern Bloc nations and the (relatively) peaceful transition of all of this in the 4E timeline would have given this a boost.

Well ... as you'll notice from the time stamps, I started this thread way back when I still harboured the — in retrospect I realise, somewhat naïve — misapprehension that Ligan actually was soliciting feedback on the Alpha release's world building. I thought — or hoped, at least — that they'd be inclined to take on board all the widespread criticism and comments, here and on other sites, take the text back to the drawing board, and make use of all that feedback to work with Chris and create a credible back story to the War.

As it is though, the back story we ended up with — that assumes a timeline that progresses exactly as it did historically all the way up until August of 1991, but then ends up with the coup succeeding and the USSR all by its bankrupt lonesome running over most of Europe — is, I'm sorry to say, quite nonsensical. Which, one might say — and some have — is okay; it's just a fantasy game, none of it happened in reality. It might as well be UFO's and zombies, it makes no difference. It doesn't need to be — indeed, it can't be — "realistic", since it isn't "real". Or so the argument goes, anyway.
But to me, it's much the same as writing an alternate history where Germany wins WWII, that progresses exactly as it did historically, not even with minor departures, all the way until the Siege of Berlin ... where the Germans suddenly defeat the Red Army and then proceed to roll up the Western Front! Without exaggeration, it's on that level.
We discussed this quite extensively back then, here, here, here, and here, among a multitude of other places.

So, given what I've just said ... in order for me to assimilate any information provided into a context that makes sense to me, we will have to consider the question to be posed within the framework of a "homebrew". It would not fit — nor indeed make any sense, given the format I phrase it in — within the framework of the current "canonical" 4E world building.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
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Ursus Maior
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Re: Finland

Sun 15 Aug 2021, 21:57

No need to get vitriolic. I was just trying to fathom, where your timeline deviates and what your though process is. All good, I have my problems with aspects of the FL timeline as well. Though that goes for the original GDW editions as well. But that's for another place to discuss about.
liber & infractus
 
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Viperion_NZ
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Re: Finland

Mon 16 Aug 2021, 09:19

That's....not vitriolic. Like, at all.
 
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Re: Finland

Mon 16 Aug 2021, 11:27

Moderator Message: There are a lot of exaggerations made in this thread and apparently bitterness because someones new toy didn't turned up exactly how he imagined it. Stop this nonsense. This thread is about Finland and the T2K4E setting, so discuss that here. Also, linking to threads that are outdated (many of the alpha threads contain things that has been changed one way or the other) will not help much either. Discuss the finalized version, good, bad, whatever.
“Thanks for noticin' me.” - Eeyore
 
Machete_Matt
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Re: Finland

Mon 31 Jan 2022, 07:40

Sorry for necroing this thread. But I will add something that may be of interest to some T2K publication history buffs.

Background: I'm a Finn. Served in the Finnish military 1991-1992, Twilight 2K player/GM already a few years before then.

In 1990, three sourcebooks for T2K were published in Finnish. The rights were licensed from GDW. One is a special forces sourcebook (Erikoisjoukot), expanding character creation and providing new weapons. Another is a Nordic countries sourcebook (Pohjoismaat lähdekirja), and the final one a Nordic campaign (Kööpenhaminaan) where the PCs leave Poland by boat with the aim of sailing to Copenhagen, but things do not go as planned... The Nordic setup in these is quite different from the fourth edition, but it is, I think, indicative of what gung-ho Finns thought at the time, and how we may might have approached violations of our sovereignty.

In this version of history, the Soviets attack Norway up north in 1996. NATO responds, and pushes the Soviets back in early 1997, but the Soviets dig in and it is impossible for the US to advance in the narrow stretch of land. U.S. general Jack Thompson, therefore, plans to cut through Finland with the 6th division to get at the Soviets. The Norwegians are shocked by this plan and try to tell him not to proceed. He waves them off. His assumption is that the Finns will merely protest about neutrality, but do not actually intend to do anything about it.

The division enters Finland into a 15 minute barrage of artillery fire. What follows is a couple hundred kilometers of Finns conducting an orderly fighting retreat, until they disappear into the roadless wilderness and into an impenetrable fortress at Ivalo. The Americans carry on, get to the Soviet border, and successfully fight the Soviets. Then the Finns cut the division's supply lines and decimate it. Survivors run off into the wilderness.

The recently appointed Soviet commander, general Govorov, notes that, based on the Finnish attack on the Americans and KGB information, the Finns are now allied with the Soviet Union. He decides to pursue to remnants of the U.S. 6th division through Finland and into Norway. His staff protests, but he goes ahead. The Finns destroy his column, fighting even more fiercely than against the Americans. Eventually the general is shot to death by a Finnish sniper while inspecting the front (some say it was the GRU or the Soviet military that did it, instead) and the Soviets promptly retreat to their side of the border.


In 2000, Finland is technically at war with both NATO and the Soviets. And happy to make peace with either party if asked.
Sweden has managed to stay neutral, but members of the civilian government were killed early in the war. The military is in charge, but there is widespread anarchy and most of northern Sweden is ruled by a national-socialistic Republic of Sweden, aka Vita Sverige or White Sweden. In June 2000 units of the Kingdom of Sweden fight those of the Republic of Sweden for control of Stockhom.
Northern Norway down to Narvik will be taken in a Soviet surprise attack that starts in December, 2000.


Regarding the sourcebooks: Each one is 48 pages. The publication date is interesting in two ways: locking things in right before massive changes in geopolitics, as well as falling in-between the first and second editions of the game. On the latter, e.g., the special forces sourcebook is made for 1st edition rules, but the last three pages provide 2nd edition stats for new weaponry.
 
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Vader
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Re: Finland

Mon 31 Jan 2022, 16:48

Not to exaggerate, but — oh I'd dearly love to get my hands on those three books...!
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
Machete_Matt
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Re: Finland

Mon 31 Jan 2022, 20:18

Not to exaggerate, but — oh I'd dearly love to get my hands on those three books...!

The books are readily available from the Finnish game store Fantasiapelit, https://www.fantasiapelit.com/. I did a search for Twilight 2000 right now in the online storefront, and the three booklets are all in the second row of results, right below the 4th edition results on the first row. :) They were also available in the physical store at the Helsinki railway station last summer. It's only been 30+ years since publication, so perhaps they overestimated demand slightly...

They are only €5 each. But they are only available in Finnish.
 
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Re: Finland

Mon 31 Jan 2022, 22:20

Not to exaggerate, but — oh I'd dearly love to get my hands on those three books...!
Translated into English or German preferably, for me.
liber & infractus
 
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Vader
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Re: Finland

Mon 31 Jan 2022, 23:50

But they are only available in Finnish.

No, ei tuo minua juuri haittaa...

One might feel a bit bitter that these toys only seem to be available in PDF format, though.
Before you use the word "XENOMORPH" again, you should read this article through:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/aliens-throwaway-line-confusion
 
Machete_Matt
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Re: Finland

Wed 02 Feb 2022, 05:36

Translated into English or German preferably, for me.

Based on how the Nordic sourcebook is written in parts (e.g. on p. 9: "The Nordics consists of five independent nations: Denmark, Norway, Iceland, Sweden, and Finland.") it seems to me it may have been written with a potential translation in mind. Because you wouldn't really need to waste space on this level of information if the target audience were just Finns. Unless you are paid by the word, of course. 8-) I served in the military with the author, Janne Kemppi, but I do not recall ever discussing any translation plans. Maybe if he sees this, he can enlighten us. Who knows, he might have had a translation (and rights to distribute it) in his back pocket for the past three decades. :-)

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