n4tune8
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu 22 Apr 2021, 22:11
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Final pdf delivery

Fri 03 Dec 2021, 14:44

Hi y'all!
Very good to see how eager you are to get your hands on the final PDFs.
For your information, we were planning to wait with this until the Pledge Manager has closed (which would make administering the fulfillment phase less heavy), but if you are fine with receiving the finished books as updated ALPHA-product files it is easily done. We'll do it right away, so start keeping an eye on your inboxes.
Have a great weekend,
/MJH
Thank you very much Mattias. We were a bit worried by the lack of information but this update fixes that.
 
User avatar
pagnabros
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu 18 Jun 2020, 00:47

Re: Final pdf delivery

Fri 03 Dec 2021, 14:58

At a first glance of the Player's Guide, it doesn't seem to address any of the complained stuffs many in the playtest addressed. What a shame...
 
User avatar
Mattias_JH
Posts: 56
Joined: Sun 17 Feb 2019, 10:29

Re: Final pdf delivery

Fri 03 Dec 2021, 15:50

At a first glance of the Player's Guide, it doesn't seem to address any of the complained stuffs many in the playtest addressed. What a shame...
Well, some things have been adjusted, other things not - but rest assured that all comments have been listened to and contemplated.
 
Ugglefar
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2016, 21:17
Location: Sweden/USA

Re: Final pdf delivery

Fri 03 Dec 2021, 16:10

Hi y'all!
Very good to see how eager you are to get your hands on the final PDFs.
For your information, we were planning to wait with this until the Pledge Manager has closed (which would make administering the fulfillment phase less heavy), but if you are fine with receiving the finished books as updated ALPHA-product files it is easily done. We'll do it right away, so start keeping an eye on your inboxes.
Have a great weekend,
/MJH
Thank you Mattias!
 
Ugglefar
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2016, 21:17
Location: Sweden/USA

Re: Final pdf delivery

Fri 03 Dec 2021, 16:27

At a first glance of the Player's Guide, it doesn't seem to address any of the complained stuffs many in the playtest addressed. What a shame...

I have yet to receive the very latest updated version, but I got to see the updated alpha before it was sent to the printers. Not everything people had commented about was changed, but many other things were. Most of the martial classes, except Warrior, lost their fourth attack; the Monster Hunter's Polearm Master was changed; a lot of abilities were clarified if they could be used with both ranged and melee weapons, or just one or the other; some spells were clarified; a lot of spelling mistakes were addressed.

Did they make a complete overhaul? No. But they certainly updated the text.

I think a lot of the dissatisfaction some people feel over Ruins of Symbaroum is that it wasn't clear for everyone what the vision of the game engine conversion was. They want to bring the D&D players to Symbaroum, not the other way around, so they wanted to keep things familiar enough for someone whose main (or maybe only) exposure to TTRPGs is D&D 5e.

Me personally would have preferred a slightly less D&D feeling and a stronger Symbaroum feeling in Ruins of Symbaroum. But looking at the vision during the game design I think the team did a good job. I am in no way personally affiliated with Free League, so I'm just guessing, but probably economics and logistics played into affecting the time restraints on the alpha.
 
sandor7
Topic Author
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue 06 Jul 2021, 04:58

Re: Final pdf delivery

Fri 03 Dec 2021, 16:45

Hi y'all!
Very good to see how eager you are to get your hands on the final PDFs.
For your information, we were planning to wait with this until the Pledge Manager has closed (which would make administering the fulfillment phase less heavy), but if you are fine with receiving the finished books as updated ALPHA-product files it is easily done. We'll do it right away, so start keeping an eye on your inboxes.
Have a great weekend,
/MJH
oh my! I've got to say, I'm super excited to see this, and truly grateful that you took the time to make this happen, especially since I'm sure you guys have a million other things going on right now! a big "thank you" to everyone involved in making this happen!
 
User avatar
pagnabros
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu 18 Jun 2020, 00:47

Re: Final pdf delivery

Fri 03 Dec 2021, 18:27

I have yet to receive the very latest updated version, but I got to see the updated alpha before it was sent to the printers. Not everything people had commented about was changed, but many other things were. Most of the martial classes, except Warrior, lost their fourth attack; the Monster Hunter's Polearm Master was changed; a lot of abilities were clarified if they could be used with both ranged and melee weapons, or just one or the other; some spells were clarified; a lot of spelling mistakes were addressed.

Did they make a complete overhaul? No. But they certainly updated the text.
I don't want to sound antagonistic, so I will try to present my POV as objectively as possible. While there were some clarifications/rewriting on some features, the balance and design direction of several approaches/races/feats is still lacking. Some examples (but I can do more if required):
1) The Goblin race gives you the Dodge action as a bonus action, each turn. In comparison the Changeling, If you allow feats, can take the Change Self feat. It's not something they automatically get, they still need to trade an ASI. And that's it. The Goblin has a d6 as Hit Die (if you use the optional rule) while the Changeling has a d8, but from an optimizing point of view I will happily trade a +1 per level on hit points for disadvantage on all attack rolls against me all turns.
2) The first features of a subclass are particularly important and should be solid, distinct, and make gameplay interesting. The Outlaw approach for the Captain gives you the Deception, Stealth or Survival skill, +10 to your base walking speed and as a bonus action basically the Thieves' Chant feature. This is a very uninspired, uninteresting design IMO.
3) The Origin feat for Ogres, Big Bones, gives you +1 to your Strength modifier, but this is not the typical language of 5e. It is a typo or it was intentional? And if intentional, that's mean an Ogre with 20 Strength could have a modifier of +6, bypassing the normal limit of 20 on a stat?

And I want to specify that during playtest all those things were being pointed out by playtesters (some as the Goblin example even when first released as a trial document) and they could be relatively easily changed, so why didn't address them? Because they were convinced that they are fine? Because they forgot them? Because they didn't have enough time? Either way, I think is at least reasonable to say that several things were purposely left the way they were even if several issues about them were pointed out during playtesting. And now, since this is the Final PDF, there is no chance to ever see them changed, which for me personally is a shame.
 
Ugglefar
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2016, 21:17
Location: Sweden/USA

Re: Final pdf delivery

Fri 03 Dec 2021, 19:16

I have yet to receive the very latest updated version, but I got to see the updated alpha before it was sent to the printers. Not everything people had commented about was changed, but many other things were. Most of the martial classes, except Warrior, lost their fourth attack; the Monster Hunter's Polearm Master was changed; a lot of abilities were clarified if they could be used with both ranged and melee weapons, or just one or the other; some spells were clarified; a lot of spelling mistakes were addressed.

Did they make a complete overhaul? No. But they certainly updated the text.
I don't want to sound antagonistic, so I will try to present my POV as objectively as possible. While there were some clarifications/rewriting on some features, the balance and design direction of several approaches/races/feats is still lacking. Some examples (but I can do more if required):
1) The Goblin race gives you the Dodge action as a bonus action, each turn. In comparison the Changeling, If you allow feats, can take the Change Self feat. It's not something they automatically get, they still need to trade an ASI. And that's it. The Goblin has a d6 as Hit Die (if you use the optional rule) while the Changeling has a d8, but from an optimizing point of view I will happily trade a +1 per level on hit points for disadvantage on all attack rolls against me all turns.
2) The first features of a subclass are particularly important and should be solid, distinct, and make gameplay interesting. The Outlaw approach for the Captain gives you the Deception, Stealth or Survival skill, +10 to your base walking speed and as a bonus action basically the Thieves' Chant feature. This is a very uninspired, uninteresting design IMO.
3) The Origin feat for Ogres, Big Bones, gives you +1 to your Strength modifier, but this is not the typical language of 5e. It is a typo or it was intentional? And if intentional, that's mean an Ogre with 20 Strength could have a modifier of +6, bypassing the normal limit of 20 on a stat?

And I want to specify that during playtest all those things were being pointed out by playtesters (some as the Goblin example even when first released as a trial document) and they could be relatively easily changed, so why didn't address them? Because they were convinced that they are fine? Because they forgot them? Because they didn't have enough time? Either way, I think is at least reasonable to say that several things were purposely left the way they were even if several issues about them were pointed out during playtesting. And now, since this is the Final PDF, there is no chance to ever see them changed, which for me personally is a shame.

I myself was one of the players that had concern over the design of the Goblin origin, and the developers looked into it and decided to keep the design as it is. I don't agree with this design choice, but it has not been left as it is because of laziness, it's intentional. Also, I'm not a game designer, so I will wait and see how it turns out after several game sessions of actual play.

I have provided my feedback, some of my comments the developers agreed with, others they didn't. I will try the final version of the game and see how it feels in actual play. If I don't like it I will start to homebrew. I have already been contacted by some players that have started to work on their own house rules because they are dissatisfied with how Ruins of Symbaroum turned out. That could be something to explore. I would be happy to discuss it further.

Edit: I understand your concerns, but I think us the fan base can together address any rules that we notice do not work.

P.S. concerning the dodge action for the goblin. I noticed that AoE attacks (or saving throws in general) often balanced out the battles. But I am still cautious about it and might ending up house ruling it.
Last edited by Ugglefar on Fri 03 Dec 2021, 19:19, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
Jacob Rodgers
Posts: 158
Joined: Tue 16 Jun 2020, 16:41
Location: Sunny Florida (USA)
Contact:

Re: Final pdf delivery

Fri 03 Dec 2021, 19:18

1) The Goblin race gives you the Dodge action as a bonus action, each turn. In comparison the Changeling, If you allow feats, can take the Change Self feat. It's not something they automatically get, they still need to trade an ASI. And that's it. The Goblin has a d6 as Hit Die (if you use the optional rule) while the Changeling has a d8, but from an optimizing point of view I will happily trade a +1 per level on hit points for disadvantage on all attack rolls against me all turns.
.
This issue, as mentioned has existed since the first iterations of the rule. One would then conclude that it must not be an issue or that we are simply stubborn (perhaps a little bit of both?). This is a complex problem and needs a holistic approach. Goblins are Small. This discourages them from using the hardest hitting weapons (Heavy or Massive weapons), prevents them from being able to apply many features to creatures larger than they are (usually part of the most recent clarification text) and have the Pariah trait, which really hurts them in the negotiation/social scenes that a lot of the adventures feature. Andriks are much the same. but have Tough and Provocative to compensate instead of Survival Instinct.
.
2) The first features of a subclass are particularly important and should be solid, distinct, and make gameplay interesting. The Outlaw approach for the Captain gives you the Deception, Stealth or Survival skill, +10 to your base walking speed and as a bonus action basically the Thieves' Cant feature. This is a very uninspired, uninteresting design IMO.
.
Thanks for your feedback! I personally believe there are adventure/campaign premises where the Outlaw can shine, especially with the base abilities of the Captain (such as Bid to Action and Tactical Acumen {since an Outlaw almost certainly will have a high Dex score/mod taking disadvantage yourself to give 2-6 allies Advantage can help on that crucial first round, especially if you're facing a large number of low threat mooks}), where that secret communication can trigger counterattacks, the next phase of a plan, or just give mechanical impetus to a story about rebelling against authority. And, of course, higher mobility never hurts anyone (hey, if you're a goblin Outlaw, you go to 30 feet and can Dash as a bonus action to get a total of 60 and still have your action!)
.
3) The Origin feat for Ogres, Big Bones, gives you +1 to your Strength modifier, but this is not the typical language of 5e. It is a typo or it was intentional? And if intentional, that's mean an Ogre with 20 Strength could have a modifier of +6, bypassing the normal limit of 20 on a stat?
.
Representing Ogres and Trolls in Ruins of Symbaroum without hitting some natural limits of the core system was a bit of a challenge. If you think we went too far there, then a simple adjustment would be +1 to Strength score and not Strength modifier.
.
And I want to specify that during playtest all those things were being pointed out by playtesters (some as the Goblin example even when first released as a trial document) and they could be relatively easily changed, so why didn't address them? Because they were convinced that they are fine? Because they forgot them? Because they didn't have enough time? Either way, I think is at least reasonable to say that several things were purposely left the way they were even if several issues about them were pointed out during playtesting. And now, since this is the Final PDF, there is no chance to ever see them changed, which for me personally is a shame.
.
I wouldn't say never. (Bear in mind that the core rules released over 7 years ago were different from the SRD rules released nearly 6 years ago, and that they continue to evolve.) We've made every effort to make a game that 5e players will enjoy and that will welcome them into the setting of Symbaroum and who knows what the future holds?
 
Ugglefar
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2016, 21:17
Location: Sweden/USA

Re: Final pdf delivery

Fri 03 Dec 2021, 19:28

1) The Goblin race gives you the Dodge action as a bonus action, each turn. In comparison the Changeling, If you allow feats, can take the Change Self feat. It's not something they automatically get, they still need to trade an ASI. And that's it. The Goblin has a d6 as Hit Die (if you use the optional rule) while the Changeling has a d8, but from an optimizing point of view I will happily trade a +1 per level on hit points for disadvantage on all attack rolls against me all turns.
.
This issue, as mentioned has existed since the first iterations of the rule. One would then conclude that it must not be an issue or that we are simply stubborn (perhaps a little bit of both?). This is a complex problem and needs a holistic approach. Goblins are Small. This discourages them from using the hardest hitting weapons (Heavy or Massive weapons), prevents them from being able to apply many features to creatures larger than they are (usually part of the most recent clarification text) and have the Pariah trait, which really hurts them in the negotiation/social scenes that a lot of the adventures feature. Andriks are much the same. but have Tough and Provocative to compensate instead of Survival Instinct.
.
2) The first features of a subclass are particularly important and should be solid, distinct, and make gameplay interesting. The Outlaw approach for the Captain gives you the Deception, Stealth or Survival skill, +10 to your base walking speed and as a bonus action basically the Thieves' Cant feature. This is a very uninspired, uninteresting design IMO.
.
Thanks for your feedback! I personally believe there are adventure/campaign premises where the Outlaw can shine, especially with the base abilities of the Captain (such as Bid to Action and Tactical Acumen {since an Outlaw almost certainly will have a high Dex score/mod taking disadvantage yourself to give 2-6 allies Advantage can help on that crucial first round, especially if you're facing a large number of low threat mooks}), where that secret communication can trigger counterattacks, the next phase of a plan, or just give mechanical impetus to a story about rebelling against authority. And, of course, higher mobility never hurts anyone (hey, if you're a goblin Outlaw, you go to 30 feet and can Dash as a bonus action to get a total of 60 and still have your action!)
.
3) The Origin feat for Ogres, Big Bones, gives you +1 to your Strength modifier, but this is not the typical language of 5e. It is a typo or it was intentional? And if intentional, that's mean an Ogre with 20 Strength could have a modifier of +6, bypassing the normal limit of 20 on a stat?
.
Representing Ogres and Trolls in Ruins of Symbaroum without hitting some natural limits of the core system was a bit of a challenge. If you think we went too far there, then a simple adjustment would be +1 to Strength score and not Strength modifier.
.
And I want to specify that during playtest all those things were being pointed out by playtesters (some as the Goblin example even when first released as a trial document) and they could be relatively easily changed, so why didn't address them? Because they were convinced that they are fine? Because they forgot them? Because they didn't have enough time? Either way, I think is at least reasonable to say that several things were purposely left the way they were even if several issues about them were pointed out during playtesting. And now, since this is the Final PDF, there is no chance to ever see them changed, which for me personally is a shame.
.
I wouldn't say never. (Bear in mind that the core rules released over 7 years ago were different from the SRD rules released nearly 6 years ago, and that they continue to evolve.) We've made every effort to make a game that 5e players will enjoy and that will welcome them into the setting of Symbaroum and who knows what the future holds?

Thank you for the comments Jacob.

I think it's a good sign how many discussions there have been here on the forum for a game that is relatively small on the international scene. It shows that the player base cares. I appreciate when you discuss your design choices, it's hard to provide valuable feedback sometime when the goal of a particular game design isn't clear.

I am really looking forward to trying out the final product with my players, and I am really looking forward to see new players explore Davokar for the first time.

And I am sure that if there are problems with game balance and design that will first be obvious after a few years we can continue the discussions here on the forum. After all, there is a new D&D rule set coming in 2024, and perhaps Ruins of Symbaroum could need an update after that. ;)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests