Ugglefar
Topic Author
Posts: 115
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2016, 21:17
Location: Sweden/USA

Concerns about the Player's Guide

Wed 29 Sep 2021, 06:14

So now the official deadline has past for feedback on the Player's Guide.

While looking through the Gamemaster's Guide this book feels very polished already. However, when I looked through the Player's Guide it felt in parts like an unfinished product:
  • There were quite a lot of spelling errors, and especially sentences that were not phrased in a very clear way.
  • Some decisions concerning game balance and game design didn't feel polished.
  • It felt like there were some artefacts left during the conversion between the different game engines that would need to be hammered out.

My concern is that Fria Ligan will push for publication before the game is fully polished. I remember this happened with the launch of Coriolis (Swedish version), and I was disappointed to find a lot of mistakes that could easily have been fixed by working on the game for another month or two.

Does anyone else share my concerns?
 
Spat
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat 04 Jan 2020, 13:32

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Wed 29 Sep 2021, 11:49

Well I agree with you, I was disappointed by the Player's, while the work is better for the Gamemaster's.
But the Gamemaster's content is for a big part generic , not system depending, and they could use what is mature from Symbaroum.

As one of the other participant in the forum said, it might be too big a bone to chew for the team.
The editors are obviously interested in getting a chunk of the large 5E audience, but did not get what are the assets of the 5E system, that's my fear.
In parallel they took the decision to design many new game mechanics not used in 5E, that's very risky. They did not have time to reread their Player's obviously, so I am a bit concerned about the quality of play testing...
For example :
- the spell casters are debuffed compared to 5E, which is not bad and corresponds to the setting. The corruption mechanics seems original and can bring something to the game ;
but on the other hand, probably hoping to bring something new to the fighting classes, these approaches have many new rules and more powerful features compared to 5E (free advantages, 4 attacks at high level, etc etc). They are the dream of 5E power builders for some of them. So a gap will probably appear between spell casters and fighters at higher levels. This will probably turn the game boring. Balance between classes are a key point in 5E I feel, so the fighting classes don't need buffing if the spell casters are debuffed, they just need flavor.
- why so many approaches, I mean some are almost redundant (Bounty Hunter, Witch Hunter, Monster Hunter) with very close concepts, they are just made of features and the role play of these approaches is the same, and some look more like a background than a class (Former Cultist) ; a former profession is not very determining for the future know how of an adventurer...
So I hope there will be less approaches, with better design quality.
- design flaws : the alchemist traps can provoque an explosion on a "natural 1", but most of them don't need an attack roll, just a saving throw...
To get 5E's audience, I think the game will need 5E's important assets : rigorous rules, balance, everybody can shine...
Symbaroum is a flavorful world, it desserves a good system.
Apparently some people are thrilled by the approaches, so I may be wrong. Anyway, I don't think the game designers will rewrite that much before final release.
Let's hope I will be surprised.
 
SoulAngel
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue 31 Aug 2021, 19:29

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Wed 29 Sep 2021, 15:53

Same concerns here.

I think that the new corruption idea is very nice and well designed. I'm very affraid by the long list of error i've found, difference between the fluff text and the technical part (self taught mage for eg) and also the mix between 5e srd/ogl and symbaroum part (the difference is tight and very unclear to when it's symbaroum part and when it's 5e).
I'm a bit disappointed to have few discussions with the author (but i can understand they have a lot of work) but i participate to another adaptation of 5E (for a french editor, the "heroes&dragons" campaign) and on the forum, we had a lot of discussions with authors and we exchange our different points of views/opinions... it was very constructives and we bring so many changes compared to the original version (i think more than 40% of the content); their approach was different because they post, every week on the forum, a class... so we can discuss about it.

I would be rassured if they post a beta version of the player guide with all fixes and remarks included to do another lecture on this forum.
 
Ugglefar
Topic Author
Posts: 115
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2016, 21:17
Location: Sweden/USA

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Wed 29 Sep 2021, 23:33

Well I agree with you, I was disappointed by the Player's, while the work is better for the Gamemaster's.
But the Gamemaster's content is for a big part generic , not system depending, and they could use what is mature from Symbaroum.

As one of the other participant in the forum said, it might be too big a bone to chew for the team.
The editors are obviously interested in getting a chunk of the large 5E audience, but did not get what are the assets of the 5E system, that's my fear.
In parallel they took the decision to design many new game mechanics not used in 5E, that's very risky. They did not have time to reread their Player's obviously, so I am a bit concerned about the quality of play testing...
For example :
- the spell casters are debuffed compared to 5E, which is not bad and corresponds to the setting. The corruption mechanics seems original and can bring something to the game ;
but on the other hand, probably hoping to bring something new to the fighting classes, these approaches have many new rules and more powerful features compared to 5E (free advantages, 4 attacks at high level, etc etc). They are the dream of 5E power builders for some of them. So a gap will probably appear between spell casters and fighters at higher levels. This will probably turn the game boring. Balance between classes are a key point in 5E I feel, so the fighting classes don't need buffing if the spell casters are debuffed, they just need flavor.
- why so many approaches, I mean some are almost redundant (Bounty Hunter, Witch Hunter, Monster Hunter) with very close concepts, they are just made of features and the role play of these approaches is the same, and some look more like a background than a class (Former Cultist) ; a former profession is not very determining for the future know how of an adventurer...
So I hope there will be less approaches, with better design quality.
- design flaws : the alchemist traps can provoque an explosion on a "natural 1", but most of them don't need an attack roll, just a saving throw...
To get 5E's audience, I think the game will need 5E's important assets : rigorous rules, balance, everybody can shine...
Symbaroum is a flavorful world, it desserves a good system.
Apparently some people are thrilled by the approaches, so I may be wrong. Anyway, I don't think the game designers will rewrite that much before final release.
Let's hope I will be surprised.

As I understood it many of the Approaches are there to allow for a conversion of PCs between the different game engines for Symbaroum.

I would be interested to see a short high level adventure so you could test how the different classes feel. I guess I could always use the Standard D&D 5e monster book, but if the game testing phase is officially over now that feels a little bit pointless. In standard D&D the caster classes seem to have a reputation of outshining the martial classes at higher levels, so the nerfed state of the casters in Symbaroum (which is very much appropriate for the setting) in combination with the potentially buffed state of martials will be a very different experience for sure. But I am not a good person to judge it since most of my standard D&D games have been in the 1-12 level range.

I wished they had more of a real gameplay testing stage for the backers, because there were a lot of classes we didn't see until the alpha of the Player's Guide, and very little time to test it out. Especially if there will be no opportunity at all for us to give feedback on the changes they do after the feedback on the alpha. It would be nice to see a beta stage as well before final print. With that being said I am in no way claiming that my suggestions to the game is better than Jacob's and the rest of the team, I'm more looking for an opportunity to "pressure test" their design decision.
 
Ugglefar
Topic Author
Posts: 115
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2016, 21:17
Location: Sweden/USA

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Wed 29 Sep 2021, 23:36

Same concerns here.

I think that the new corruption idea is very nice and well designed. I'm very affraid by the long list of error i've found, difference between the fluff text and the technical part (self taught mage for eg) and also the mix between 5e srd/ogl and symbaroum part (the difference is tight and very unclear to when it's symbaroum part and when it's 5e).
I'm a bit disappointed to have few discussions with the author (but i can understand they have a lot of work) but i participate to another adaptation of 5E (for a french editor, the "heroes&dragons" campaign) and on the forum, we had a lot of discussions with authors and we exchange our different points of views/opinions... it was very constructives and we bring so many changes compared to the original version (i think more than 40% of the content); their approach was different because they post, every week on the forum, a class... so we can discuss about it.

I would be rassured if they post a beta version of the player guide with all fixes and remarks included to do another lecture on this forum.

Yes, I would love to see a beta version of the Player's Guide. And in conjunction with that some more active discussions between us backers and the developers. I am very much stressing the point that I think that the developers have done a great job, but there are some design decisions I don't fully understand. It would be nice to hear their thought processes with some of the class designs.
 
goonytunes
Posts: 7
Joined: Wed 01 Sep 2021, 00:02

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Sat 02 Oct 2021, 00:09

Agreed - for the sake of due diligence, I hope they release a Player's Guide beta for confirmation before print. It is a great guide with a lot of good content, but the sheer volume of discussion regarding word choice, spelling, rule clarification, balance, etc. would warrant a beta release to make sure everything was captured. It would be a disservice to alpha reviewers to see their reviews missed by accident.
 
Ugglefar
Topic Author
Posts: 115
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2016, 21:17
Location: Sweden/USA

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Sat 02 Oct 2021, 15:37

The more I am rereading the classes in the Player's Guide the more concerned I am with balance. Like with the Berserker Approach:
It is basically the Standard D&D Fighter class with the kit of the Barbarian class added as well. The standard Barbarian has only one extra attack (lvl 5), while the RoS has three... They do have less hit points, but it still feels very strong. It's hard to properly judge it with such a short alpha phase.

Edit: In general I am surprised that so many of the martial classes got more than one extra attack in RoS. In standard D&D only the Fighter Class got more extra attacks than one extra attack at level 5. Of course the rest of the class features are different, so it is hard to properly judge it without extensive playtesting.
 
SoulAngel
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue 31 Aug 2021, 19:29

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Sun 03 Oct 2021, 11:51

Agree with this too;

The mix barbarian-fighter seems to be very strong! :s
 
Ugglefar
Topic Author
Posts: 115
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2016, 21:17
Location: Sweden/USA

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Sun 03 Oct 2021, 22:34

Agree with this too;

The mix barbarian-fighter seems to be very strong! :s

Yeah, sad to say it feels like the Player's Guide is rushed. The work is not bad, far from. It just feels like a lot of the mechanics and design choices haven't been given enough time to be properly evaluated. I also get the impression that the number of players that has tested the game before we got to see the alpha must have been fairly low.
 
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pagnabros
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu 18 Jun 2020, 00:47

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Mon 11 Oct 2021, 22:17

I'm also worried about the state of the Player's Guide from a gameplay point of view, because in my opinion many of the class and subclasses are a little too simple and boring and also lacking customization (why all Outlaw to be optimized must be ranged? Why only some subclasses have Alchemy or Poison Expertise, instead of being a feat that everyone could take?).

I honestly wished that more of the freedom in character creation from the original system would be ported into the 5e conversion.

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