Ugglefar
Topic Author
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2016, 21:17
Location: Sweden/USA

Sorcerer and Self-Taught in the Alpha, a suggested change.

Thu 16 Sep 2021, 20:46

As has been pointed out by myself and others there is at the present moment a discrepancy between how the Sorcerer and Self-Taught mystic are described lore-wise, and how they work mechanically. Lore-wise these two Approaches should be more susceptible to Corruption, since they lack the training from the magic traditions. However, right now they are BETTER at avoiding Corruption than the traditions. I guess the reason for this is due to the conversion between the different game engines. If I recall correctly you would get a point of permanent Corruption for every new spell/power you got, unless you first had spent xp on joining one of the magic traditions. So in the old rule set you would gain power more quickly, but at the cost of permanent Corruption, meaning at higher level games Sorcerer and Self-Taught mystics would really start to be affected by their permanent Corruption. In the 5e rules you no longer get permanent Corruption while learning new spells, so this might just simply be an oversight in the rule conversion (and if it's not please correct me).

A suggestion I have to align the lore and game mechanics in RoS, without completely changing the current traits for the Approaches, is to simply add a new trait; something similar to this:

The Price of Power: By not following the careful studies of the magic traditions you have quickly gained power and learned how to cope with the effects of temporary Corruption. However this has left you vulnerable to the long-lasting effects of Corruption. You start with one point of permanent Corruption at level 1, and you gain an additional point of permanent Corruption every time you gain access to a new spell level.

Of course these numbers can be changed accordingly to make them more balanced.

What do you think?
 
Barbarianbob
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat 16 Jan 2021, 02:16

Re: Sorcerer and Self-Taught in the Alpha, a suggested change.

Tue 21 Sep 2021, 03:42

I think that's an interesting idea and a very workable and scalable solution.

My only hesitancy is simply that I've not seen all this in play yet so I'm not sure how the balance is currently. I can only assume it's been play>tested.

But on to the surface it makes sense.
 
Ugglefar
Topic Author
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2016, 21:17
Location: Sweden/USA

Re: Sorcerer and Self-Taught in the Alpha, a suggested change.

Tue 21 Sep 2021, 04:55

I think that's an interesting idea and a very workable and scalable solution.

My only hesitancy is simply that I've not seen all this in play yet so I'm not sure how the balance is currently. I can only assume it's been play>tested.

But on to the surface it makes sense.

Jacob and the others would need to take a look at the exact numbers and how these would work with the game as a whole. I haven't had the opportunity to properly play test it in any way.
 
SoulAngel
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue 31 Aug 2021, 19:29

Re: Sorcerer and Self-Taught in the Alpha, a suggested change.

Tue 21 Sep 2021, 10:53

Nice idea... and if there is no changes in the official rules, i would gladly apply this rule (i'm open minded to other solution).

And i know it's not the core matter of this topic but don't you think that troll singing have also a problem in their construction?
 
Barbarianbob
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat 16 Jan 2021, 02:16

Re: Sorcerer and Self-Taught in the Alpha, a suggested change.

Tue 21 Sep 2021, 23:53

Nice idea... and if there is no changes in the official rules, i would gladly apply this rule (i'm open minded to other solution).

And i know it's not the core matter of this topic but don't you think that troll singing have also a problem in their construction?
I;ll have to re-read it and get back to you.
 
Ugglefar
Topic Author
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2016, 21:17
Location: Sweden/USA

Re: Sorcerer and Self-Taught in the Alpha, a suggested change.

Wed 22 Sep 2021, 01:36

And i know it's not the core matter of this topic but don't you think that troll singing have also a problem in their construction?

Personally I think that the troll singers would have worked better as a half-caster. Give them an extra attack at level 5.

I haven't had the opportunity to actually play a troll singer with the 5e ruleset. But it looks like you want to be more sparse with the use of your leveled spells compared to the other traditions. This I don't have a problem with, if it weren't for the apparent fact that they are just as "bad" as the other casters at martial fighting.

I think giving them an extra attack at level 5 (and no more extra attack after that), would align them more with the lore that says: "...most skalds are true warrior poets that lead their allies to victory using the great power of their voice and muscles."

Edit: Or giving them an extra attack at level 6 might make more sense.
 
n4tune8
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu 22 Apr 2021, 22:11
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Sorcerer and Self-Taught in the Alpha, a suggested change.

Sat 02 Oct 2021, 17:00

The problem with Sorcerers is that the rules give them ways to mitigate corruption gain but should instead incite them to take on more permanent corruption to gain more power.
For example, The Power of Corruption, at 6th level, should be something like this: When casting a damaging spell, they add their permanent Corruption to the damage.
The Call of Darkness, at 9th level, relies on other creatures' corruption... again, a missed opportunity to entice the sorcerer to take on more permanent corruption himself. Also problematic for the GM, which must know/assess the permanent corruption on each target of the spell. I would simply change it to use the sorcerer's permanent corruption.
There is already a balance in the game, that more permanent corruption means less spells per short rest. Therefore, sorcerers would be casting less spells, but with greater power and less likely to be resisted.
Unholy Aura, at 17th level, should work like the spell Fire Shield: whenever a creature within 5 feet of you hits you with a melee attack, the attacker takes your permanent corruption in necrotic damage, half on a successful Con save. That aura is always on, as long as you are conscious and that you do not turn it off. (It's not much damage, but it scales with the number of attacks against you).

I haven't yet found a way to adjust The Darkened Path (1st level) and The Shadowed Slope (3rd level), but I'll keep working on it.
 
Ugglefar
Topic Author
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2016, 21:17
Location: Sweden/USA

Re: Sorcerer and Self-Taught in the Alpha, a suggested change.

Sat 02 Oct 2021, 19:05

The problem with Sorcerers is that the rules give them ways to mitigate corruption gain but should instead incite them to take on more permanent corruption to gain more power.
For example, The Power of Corruption, at 6th level, should be something like this: When casting a damaging spell, they add their permanent Corruption to the damage.
The Call of Darkness, at 9th level, relies on other creatures' corruption... again, a missed opportunity to entice the sorcerer to take on more permanent corruption himself. Also problematic for the GM, which must know/assess the permanent corruption on each target of the spell. I would simply change it to use the sorcerer's permanent corruption.
There is already a balance in the game, that more permanent corruption means less spells per short rest. Therefore, sorcerers would be casting less spells, but with greater power and less likely to be resisted.
Unholy Aura, at 17th level, should work like the spell Fire Shield: whenever a creature within 5 feet of you hits you with a melee attack, the attacker takes your permanent corruption in necrotic damage, half on a successful Con save. That aura is always on, as long as you are conscious and that you do not turn it off. (It's not much damage, but it scales with the number of attacks against you).

I haven't yet found a way to adjust The Darkened Path (1st level) and The Shadowed Slope (3rd level), but I'll keep working on it.

I would also like to see a design that encourage Sorcerers to embrace Corruption more. This would give them a greater mechanical and lore-wise identity to contrast them against the Self-Taught.
 
n4tune8
Posts: 21
Joined: Thu 22 Apr 2021, 22:11
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Sorcerer and Self-Taught in the Alpha, a suggested change.

Sat 02 Oct 2021, 19:38

I've found what could be done with the first two features of the Sorcerer:

The Darkened Path (1st level)
When you make a successful (weapon or spell) attack roll, you may take up to your proficiency bonus in temporary Corruption to add 1d6 necrotic damage per point to that attack.

The Shadowed Slope (3rd level)
While you are on the edge of darkness, your spells are more powerful: When you cast a spell that can be cast at a higher level, increase the level of that spell by the amount by which your current Corruption exceeds your Threshold. The increase in level does not cause an increase in the amount of temporary corruption gained from casting the spell.

That way, the pull of darkness is gradual. First, you let them take on a little more corruption for more damage. Then, let them live on the edge, as they'll want to be just over the threshold. As they accumulate permanent Corruption, they 'profit' from it and are tempted to take on even more. I believe that is a good way to make the rules follow the fiction.
 
SoulAngel
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue 31 Aug 2021, 19:29

Re: Sorcerer and Self-Taught in the Alpha, a suggested change.

Sun 03 Oct 2021, 11:46

I like the idea (especially the first one). The second one is, i think, too powerful (but it's a first start)

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