Spat
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Re: The d8 Hit Dice

Sat 11 Sep 2021, 09:58

I agree with you, Trolls and Ogres (as well as Goliaths Firbolgs etc) are kept Medium for Meta reason, to avoid unbalancing the game.
For the same Meta reason, Goblins could keep a d8 Hit Dice (or a D6+ Tough Skin, whatever) to avoid this permanent advantage that unbalances the game.

But this balance concern should work for all origins.
 
Ugglefar
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Re: The d8 Hit Dice

Sat 11 Sep 2021, 15:27

I agree with you, Trolls and Ogres (as well as Goliaths Firbolgs etc) are kept Medium for Meta reason, to avoid unbalancing the game.
For the same Meta reason, Goblins could keep a d8 Hit Dice (or a D6+ Tough Skin, whatever) to avoid this permanent advantage that unbalances the game.

But this balance concern should work for all origins.

Yeah. When I first read about Hit Dice linked to your size I thought it sounded interesting, but then when in the end every Origin is medium sized except goblins then they are just the odd one out. I also have concerns considering balance, but my knowledge of probability statistics isn't good enough to evaluate it.

I mean, all classes have a D8 Hit Dice, and almost all Origins have a Hit Dice of D8, so why not just go with class based Hit Dice when it's essentially the same for everyone?
 
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jonathanpay
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Re: The d8 Hit Dice

Tue 14 Sep 2021, 12:05

Trolls and Ogres do get more HP though, thanks to their Tough Skin trait.
Then why not give goblins d8, roll twice and take lower result?

It's the same thing, reversed. But instead there's a single origin with a d6 that is sticking out like a sore thumb while everyone else has a d8 (and two get to take the higher result of rolling twice), instead of having a greater variety of hit dice.

I am not a fan of the approach in the alpha. I don't hate it, I just think it should be different.
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Jacob Rodgers
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Re: The d8 Hit Dice

Wed 15 Sep 2021, 02:27

It's the same thing, reversed. But instead there's a single origin with a d6 that is sticking out like a sore thumb while everyone else has a d8 (and two get to take the higher result of rolling twice), instead of having a greater variety of hit dice.
.
To be fair, there's another origin out there that's very controversial and almost certainly deserving of a d6 Hit Die. :)
 
Ugglefar
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Re: The d8 Hit Dice

Wed 15 Sep 2021, 04:21

It's the same thing, reversed. But instead there's a single origin with a d6 that is sticking out like a sore thumb while everyone else has a d8 (and two get to take the higher result of rolling twice), instead of having a greater variety of hit dice.
.
To be fair, there's another origin out there that's very controversial and almost certainly deserving of a d6 Hit Die. :)
:D
I do love our feathered friends, but I'm not sure they would be considered canon. ;)
 
Ugglefar
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Re: The d8 Hit Dice

Wed 15 Sep 2021, 23:37

It was an interesting idea to have Hit Die based on creature size, but when all Origins are medium size except goblins I think it just needlessly complicate things.

It will be easier for people that have only played D&D before if the Hit Die is based on the class and not the Origin. I recently moved to the US from Sweden and I will be GM:ing The Promised Land for some people at the local gaming club later this month. They all seem really hyped to play the game, and I hope that Symbaroum will take off in the US, but I've realised how synonymous D&D is with TTRPG here (to the point of some gamers seem completely oblivious that there are other TTRP systems than D&D 5e). So the easier you can make the transition from Standard D&D to Ruins of Symbaroum (while still keeping the unique deadliness of Symbaroum's dark fantasy) the better I think.

If you went with the design of goblins being small, trolls and ogres being large, and everyone else being medium then I would have thought it was an interesting change. But now it just feels slightly off. I think the goblin Origin would be balanced with a D8 Hit Die if you just removed the Dodge action from Survival Instinct. They still can take Disengage and Dash as a bonus action.
 
Barbarianbob
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Re: The d8 Hit Dice

Thu 16 Sep 2021, 06:02

After reading these posts, I gotta say, I love the new mechanic for hit points. I'm a fan. It makes sense and, to me, adds some character to the game while keeping the HP pool lower overall, thus helping to keep the element of danger and mortality a bit more in focus. D6 is great for the goblins as they have a lot of things taken into account to balance that out. Rolling twice for trolls and ogres works, as it increases their HP potential, while also keeping them "mortal" (so to speak), keeping that total down to retain the sense that, yes, you can still be killed quick if not careful.

Don't compare these trolls and ogres to the D&D ones. Not the same. And love the concept of HPs tied to origin. One of my least favorite things about D&D is "hit point slog". And this brings that down a bit. Keeps everyone on an even keel and puts the focus on other aspects of the game beside "look how many hit points I have".

I love what Jacob and company have done with Hit Dice and would not change a thing.
 
Ugglefar
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Re: The d8 Hit Dice

Thu 16 Sep 2021, 12:48

Don't compare these trolls and ogres to the D&D ones. Not the same. And love the concept of HPs tied to origin. One of my least favorite things about D&D is "hit point slog". And this brings that down a bit. Keeps everyone on an even keel and puts the focus on other aspects of the game beside "look how many hit points I have".

I don't think anyone is comparing trolls and ogres to the ones in standard D&D. The main criticism is having a special rule breaking away from standard D&D which practically only affect goblins. The classes in Symbaorum have already a different Hit Die than most in Standard D&D. All of the classes in Symbaroum have a Hit Die of D8, and all Origins EXCEPT goblins have a Hit Die of D8 in Symbaroum. So breaking away from standard D&D by basing your Hit Die on Origins, when in all practicality it only makes a difference for goblins just seems to overcomplicate things. And as some other people on the forums have pointed out; the special rules to compensate for goblins having less hit points have made them better at surviving in a fight than the other Origins.

The custom Classes and Approaches of Ruins of Symbaroum already are bringing down the number of average hit points, to the exact same numbers as the rule for Hit Die tied to Origins, with goblins being the only exception.
 
Barbarianbob
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Re: The d8 Hit Dice

Thu 16 Sep 2021, 17:52

Don't compare these trolls and ogres to the D&D ones. Not the same. And love the concept of HPs tied to origin. One of my least favorite things about D&D is "hit point slog". And this brings that down a bit. Keeps everyone on an even keel and puts the focus on other aspects of the game beside "look how many hit points I have".

I don't think anyone is comparing trolls and ogres to the ones in standard D&D. The main criticism is having a special rule breaking away from standard D&D which practically only affect goblins. The classes in Symbaorum have already a different Hit Die than most in Standard D&D. All of the classes in Symbaroum have a Hit Die of D8, and all Origins EXCEPT goblins have a Hit Die of D8 in Symbaroum. So breaking away from standard D&D by basing your Hit Die on Origins, when in all practicality it only makes a difference for goblins just seems to overcomplicate things. And as some other people on the forums have pointed out; the special rules to compensate for goblins having less hit points have made them better at surviving in a fight than the other Origins.

The custom Classes and Approaches of Ruins of Symbaroum already are bringing down the number of average hit points, to the exact same numbers as the rule for Hit Die tied to Origins, with goblins being the only exception.
All of the classes in Symbaroum have a Hit Die of D8,
Ok, someone may need to clarify this for me but from what recall, HD are defined by origin. The class options are for if you want to use the class in your standard D&D world. So im not even looking at those... I'm looking at the origin.

And u hear ya, but if the special features are making goblin's "too good" then I would suggest the features be adjusted. Bumping these HD up won't fix that.

And keeping the HD based on size provides consistency going forward (within symbaroum anyway). Small monsters and NPCs can be "counted on" to have D6 HD (under normal circumstances) and if any DM or the designers want to pull in a new small origin, then suddenly goblin's aren't the only one.

For me the D6 is something unique to then (right now) and makes them feel (mechanically) a bit different from the other races.

I like it anyway. I say stick with it and if it's determined what they have to compensate is making them to tuff, then adjust those features and move along.

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