Ugglefar
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Posts: 85
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2016, 21:17
Location: Sweden/USA

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Thu 14 Oct 2021, 01:27

I'm also worried about the state of the Player's Guide from a gameplay point of view, because in my opinion many of the class and subclasses are a little too simple and boring and also lacking customization (why all Outlaw to be optimized must be ranged? Why only some subclasses have Alchemy or Poison Expertise, instead of being a feat that everyone could take?).

I honestly wished that more of the freedom in character creation from the original system would be ported into the 5e conversion.

I actually don't have a problem with this since that is how D&D 5e seems to work a lot of the time.

However, I think that they could have had fewer Approaches in the game and moved some of them to Backgrounds or turned them into feats.
 
Barbarianbob
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat 16 Jan 2021, 02:16

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Tue 26 Oct 2021, 21:28

Hey All, out of curiosity, has anything been posted or any thing been said from Jacob or anyone on the Free League team, regarding the number of attacks per round? I know all of the martial classes will eventually get 4 attacks per round and that seems a little bit..."overpowered" at least potentially, however, it also seems to lack a certain creativity. I'm "OK" with it, I guess, but I was just curious if anyone heard anything about potentially being changed?
 
Ugglefar
Topic Author
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu 04 Aug 2016, 21:17
Location: Sweden/USA

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Tue 26 Oct 2021, 22:31

Hey All, out of curiosity, has anything been posted or any thing been said from Jacob or anyone on the Free League team, regarding the number of attacks per round? I know all of the martial classes will eventually get 4 attacks per round and that seems a little bit..."overpowered" at least potentially, however, it also seems to lack a certain creativity. I'm "OK" with it, I guess, but I was just curious if anyone heard anything about potentially being changed?

Some of the classes seem to have three attacks now.
 
Barbarianbob
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat 16 Jan 2021, 02:16

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Tue 26 Oct 2021, 23:37

Hey All, out of curiosity, has anything been posted or any thing been said from Jacob or anyone on the Free League team, regarding the number of attacks per round? I know all of the martial classes will eventually get 4 attacks per round and that seems a little bit..."overpowered" at least potentially, however, it also seems to lack a certain creativity. I'm "OK" with it, I guess, but I was just curious if anyone heard anything about potentially being changed?

Some of the classes seem to have three attacks now.
Oh Really? Well, that's cool. I wonder what they replaced it with (if anything). Either way, I think that's a good thing. All of them having 4 attacks makes them all sorta look the same (and be potentially over-powered). Variety...the spice of life and all.

I'm excited to get the printed books in hands. Game looks gorgeous!
 
SoulAngel
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue 31 Aug 2021, 19:29

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 00:29

Does someone have some news about the "beta" version of PG guide to see all the changes done since the alpha?
 
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pagnabros
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu 18 Jun 2020, 00:47

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Mon 01 Nov 2021, 03:59

For now there is only the alpha version, with no date for the beta announced yet.

I'm honestly pretty concerned about the half-cooked status of many approaches so I'm also anxious about seeing the beta version.
 
n4tune8
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu 22 Apr 2021, 22:11
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Mon 01 Nov 2021, 06:06

For now there is only the alpha version, with no date for the beta announced yet.

I'm honestly pretty concerned about the half-cooked status of many approaches so I'm also anxious about seeing the beta version.
Maybe you posted it in another thread and I didn't see it, but which approaches in particular would you change? Personally, I find the features of many Mystic approaches do not fit with their theme, or at least not the theme they originally have in Symbaroum.
 
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pagnabros
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Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Tue 02 Nov 2021, 17:12

Maybe you posted it in another thread and I didn't see it, but which approaches in particular would you change? Personally, I find the features of many Mystic approaches do not fit with their theme, or at least not the theme they originally have in Symbaroum.
I have a compiled feedback doc I sent to the designers with my main grip on the alpha. These are our major:
1) Many of the class features, especially for non-caster classes, feel uninspired, boring, or unthematic, like they were mostly put there as a “filler”. For example, many of the subclasses of the Captain, such as the Merchant Master or the Outlaw, have class features that can be reassumed as “you got a +1 to attack and damage” or “use a bonus action to make an extra attack”. While mechanically useful, they feel unexciting and boring, which we think could be very detrimental to the quality of the game and contribute to the feeling that mystics are by far the best choice, not necessarily because they are stronger but because they can do more, cooler things. Since in Symbaroum 5e there are going to be fewer classes and subclasses overall than a dnd 5e game, we think is absolutely a priority that each one feels unique and worthy to take. As some examples, we compiled a list of what we think are the major “culprit” of this criticism:
- Captain Class: Field Dressings (we know it is Song of Rest with a different name, but even Song of Rest felt lackluster, and War Stories already provide a better similar thing), Unending Conflict (not worthy as a capstone).
- Merchant Master: Exceptional Wargear, Superior Wargear.
- Officer: mostly right, but the Stand Fast! order feel like becoming obsolete by the time you get Aura of Confidence.
- Outlaw: almost everything feels boring, but Fleet-footed is the worst as a 9th level feature.
- Hunter Class: Land’s Stride, Hide in Plain Sight, Vanish, Expert Hunter (they all dnd 5e original features and are the reason why the Ranger class feels boring and weak, except for the capstone with is from the Rogue but still lackluster).
- Ironsworn: Loremaster (same as the Wizard subclass, which contributes to not feeling unique), Sniper (the fact that the 13th and 17th only upgrade this feature in minor ways feels cheap).
- Monster Hunter: similar issues with the Ironsworn for Trapper and Polearm Master, but on a lesser extension.
- Witch Hunter: same as Ironsworn, too few class features.
- Scoundrel Class: Stroke of Luck.
- Explorer: The Bigger They Are (same as Monster Hunter, and feels also not thematic for an explorer), Foe-killer (fitting more for an Assassin subclass).
- Guild Thief: Knife Play (could use a more fitting terminology to 5e), Cheap Shot (the 3rd level feature is very lackluster.
- Sapper. Alchemical Expert (lackluster capstone)
- Spy: Lack a 17th class feature, Poisoner is the same as the Former Cultist feature (even if maybe is more appropriate for the Spy than for the Former Cultist).
- Thug: Twin Attack (redundant with the Dual Wielder feat), Acrobatic Fighter (redundant with Uncanny Dodge), Strangler (high-level class features all tied to this feature make the subclass lack versatility, which is the focus of the Scoundrel class).
- Treasure-hunter: Alchemy (some clarification on what action do you need to use to cocoon an elixir or poison could be useful. Also, why every treasure hunter should be expert on alchemy?).
- Warrior Class: Undying Courage (feels like an upgrade of Indomitable, and not worthy as a capstone), Extra Attack (4) why not the capstone anymore? Seems like an odd design decision.
- Berserker: Brutal Critical improvement should not be the only 13th and 17th class feature.
- Duelist: Why a Duelist should have a Man-at-Arms class feature? Also is almost identical to the defense fighting style.
- Knight: Equestrian, Peerless Effort (seems a lesser version of Iron Fist).
- Tattooed Fighter: Again, too few unique class features even considered the upgrade which is mostly “a little more damage”.
- Templar: high-level features not enough or interesting enough, especially Witchhammer.
- Weapon Master: class feature capstone is +1 on AC and not tied to weapon mastery? Feels both strange and not enough.
- Wrathguard: Wrathful Fury (seems almost identical to the Rage feature).
2) Several class features, like for example Archery Expert, Eagle’s Eye, Polearm Master, Poisoner, Alchemy, Loremaster, Knife Play, Twin Attack, Two-Handed Force, seems very odd as specific class features and would make more sense as Feats, to allow all characters some customization, independently from their class. For martial classes in particular, we think is important to maintain the freedom to at least choose which weapons to pick and specialize into. Also, why an Outlaw should be necessary to specialize in ranged attacks? This also feels bad because it is the opposite of the design approach of the original game system in which you can specialize in whatever abilities you want without much restriction.
 
n4tune8
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu 22 Apr 2021, 22:11
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Wed 10 Nov 2021, 22:21

Hey All, out of curiosity, has anything been posted or any thing been said from Jacob or anyone on the Free League team, regarding the number of attacks per round? I know all of the martial classes will eventually get 4 attacks per round and that seems a little bit..."overpowered" at least potentially, however, it also seems to lack a certain creativity. I'm "OK" with it, I guess, but I was just curious if anyone heard anything about potentially being changed?

Some of the classes seem to have three attacks now.
Where did you see that? I'm looking at the latest alpha and the Captain, Hunter and Warrior all have 4 attacks at level 18. Since there is no Beta, are we to assume that it will stay like that in the final release?
 
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Jacob Rodgers
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Re: Concerns about the Player's Guide

Wed 10 Nov 2021, 22:38

We were able to do a "semi-closed" development loop where we were able to do some more development and feedback. We didn't have time to open up to the general public but we did look very hard at each of the issues raised and made lots of adjustments (which we then evaluated). Most of the classes now have a maximum of three 'regular' attacks, plus something interesting to do with their bonus action or reaction, whether that's an additional conditional attack opportunity or something else that allows them to buff themselves or team members.

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