Rasmus Nord
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Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Sat 20 Nov 2021, 16:30

I'm writing a long review for my blog, and I came upon some math that I find unfortunate.

It seems like even strong characters will not find being heavily armoured viable. That I think is ok for the characters, because it can be modified with rewards and virtues, but it seems to break with the setting of heavily armoured soldiers of Gondor or Bardings.

A soldier with mail coat, helmet, great shield and spear clocks in at 25 endurance. A max strength barding has Endurance 26, so is one hit away from being Weary.

Just seem weird to me.
 
Spat
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Sat 20 Nov 2021, 18:01

The goal of protections is not to get wounded in the first place, so what kind of protection would this gear bring ?

Mail Coat + helmet : protection 5d
Great Shield : Parry +3

So for a Hero with 6 Str, the Parry would be 17, not impossible to overcome. Maybe with a Defensive Stance you may last long (armors are defensive stuff after all).
He would indeed be Weary fast, unless he has special gear, like all renowned warriors have.
There are also ways to ignore weariness by Singing a War Song p.123, using Rune Scored weapon or armor.

On the other hand, a Piercing Blow would be rolled with 1 Feat Die + 5d against a TN 16-18 average, max 20, so it should be avoided.
The main goal is reached, but at the cost of being weary fast, probably a bit too much.

It corresponds to a world where only kings and heroes have such an equipment I would say, with special improvements to avoid weariness.
Else you just end up dropping your helmet to "have a breather", and swinging your sword inefficiently.
 
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Harlath
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Sat 20 Nov 2021, 22:29

Could get the load down by:

- Switching to a Mail Shirt.
- Switching to a Shield.
- Using a Sword rather than a Spear.
- Even if we're building these NPCs like PCs, assuming they've spent a Valour rank (or more!) on Cunning-make.

For example, Helm (4), Chain Shirt (9), Sword (2) and Shield (4) is a much more manageable 19 Load, or 17 if we throw in Cunning-Make. And you can cast off your Helm when you get too weary.

- The NPCs may well be following the rules for Singing Songs on p123 and therefore ignoring being Weary. Appropriate given the source material!
- Or, having NPCs follow different rules! But appreciate this is unsatisfying to many.

Finally, Weary isn't a killer downside. At Skill Level 3, our Free Peoples combatant would have a 62% chance to hit an Orc Solider (Parry +1), or a 41% chance while Weary.

Edit: we can also assume heavily armoured fighters take Hardiness (to reduce chance of being Weary) or Prowess (to boost chance to hit even when Weary).
 
Spat
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Sat 20 Nov 2021, 22:46

Also, Bardings probably wear lighter armors as their stats are similar to those of the Elves.
Dwarves are more fond of this coat of mail gear probably, with 22+Str for Endurance.
And the good combination could be with heavy armor + 2 handed weapon, or smaller shield + axe or sword.

And the remark about Hardiness and Prowess is very relevant : only experienced fighter can cope with the weight of such equipment.
 
Dunheved
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 00:09

Am I missing something? NPCs ( the bulk of any army) don't suffer from the idea of Weary. They have reduced Endurance to balance that.

Narratively only Dwarves can consider wearing heavy armour throughout their entire army. The Cultural Blessing makes it viable.

In TOR1e there were rules for mounted troops to have a reduction in the effects of Load while mounted, so when these rules are composed there may be a similar idea: cavalry components of armies would be able to wear heavy armour with similar rules.
 
Dunheved
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 01:07

The OP refers to Armies.

I don't read the armies in Tolkien as homogenous (exception Dwarves from the Iron Hills were universally clad in quality mail at the Battle of Five Armies, and the same is implied after Azanulbizar: each surviving dwarf carrying off a great burden of armour from the dead).

Surely, armies in Middle-earth had several different troop types incorporated in them. (The description in ROTK of the forces marching into Minas Tirith matches this). I use this idea below.

TOR1e had no explicit rules established for mass combat (Fans like James Brown please take a bow). Assuming that TOR2e does write these rules, I am sure that one key thing is that the rules will be designed so that PCs can smoothly add to the narrative of a battle.

1. Missile troops were often grouped together for best effect. PCs with good archery or missile skills would stand in such a unit, and it is possible that they may not partake in any close combat during the battle.

2. Lightly armoured or lightly armed troops tend to be used in operations where greater speed or manoeuvring is needed. PCs that have lighter armour might be expected to narrate their role in flank attacks or feint attacks; they might be positioned to advance across difficult or uneven terrain; or be held back to suddenly attack enemy units that rout.

3. Heavily Armoured troops are often the strongest and most stable troops. The weight does not permit them to move that rapidly. Their equipment might limit options to move around. PCs in these units might not start in immediate combat, instead waiting out the first stages (even under missile attack). They are likely to be used for intense or decisive melee, or to cover the retreat of their own army if it is being defeated.

4. Mounted troops were covered in TOR1e; and horses permitted an effective reduction in Load. So cavalry could use heavy armour and still be effective. Assuming TOR2e does something similar the same idea would apply. This would allow a PC to have heavy armour without being so concerned about a Weary state. (More flexible narration here?)

So, with any armour, a PC might expect to narrate how they fit inside a battle. As an LM I would be aiming to offer the PCs the choice of where to stand in the battle and how they might directly influence the narrative of the troops they are with. (Think Bilbo in 5 Armies, or Pippin at the Black Gate. And isn't Gimli's narrative an untold story? - what would Gloin hear when Gimli returned to Erebor?)
 
Spat
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 18:34

Narratively only Dwarves can consider wearing heavy armour throughout their entire army. The Cultural Blessing makes it viable.
Is there such a cultural blessing in TOR 2e for Dwarves ? I can't figure this out.

Stone Hard could be useful to fight with a 2H weapon, but not really something helping to stand the weight of your armor...
 
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Harlath
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 18:47

Narratively only Dwarves can consider wearing heavy armour throughout their entire army. The Cultural Blessing makes it viable.
Is there such a cultural blessing in TOR 2e for Dwarves ? I can't figure this out.

Stone Hard could be useful to fight with a 2H weapon, but not really something helping to stand the weight of your armor...
p34, "Redoubtable" significantly reduces the Load from armour. :)
 
Spat
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 18:52

Lol that's the one, thank you. Was looking at Virtues...
 
gyrovague
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Sun 21 Nov 2021, 18:55

This issue is not new with 2e. I’ve always thought (1e and now 2e) that TOR should distinguish between donning armor for a battle, and wearing it every day while on an adventure.

It makes sense, there’s textual precedent, but mostly it would be fun to, every now and then, get all suited up for a big battle.

Maybe if there are official rules/guidelines for running big battles this could be part of it. But I don’t expect so: the 2e philosophy seems to be moving a different way.

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