Dunheved
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Mon 06 Dec 2021, 08:59

It's odd how sometimes you read something and it subconsciously jars in the head.

Inculta just put a perfectly reasonable and agreeable post about heavy armour that I read and nodded along to: but FOR ME the idea that orcs should have heavy armour is fine in lore really did not sit well.

Dwarves, absolutely. ( and Dol Amroth/ Citadel guard probably ).
A few orc chieftains at Mordor uruk level... maybe they have quality armour.

But over the 50 years since I first read the Hobbit I have felt that orcs - the mass of Shadow infantry - have been successively improved in size, strength and ability. I do realise that both D n D and the Warhammer world have promoted this scaling up and that's fine - for those worlds. But Tolkiens orcs started as goblins: lots of irritating wasp like adversaries, swarming to the attack.

Generally speaking orcs were so inferior to men and elves - that Sauron felt the need to breed/create the uruks to take on Gondor. Saruman with smaller numbers in his army (And possibly copying Sauron too) had to have even mightier and tougher troop types again in his Man-orcs. Yet the 120 men of Rohan took more than 100 or so down in one combat, sustaining only 15 casualties outside Fangorn forest.

So why are orcs inferior? Size for one thing - and TOR does this properly by having reduced Endurance for these types. But I cannot remember any description that orcs were heavily armoured in the books. I think Gimli does ironically complain that he has got a notch on his axe when one orc was inconveniently armoured at the collar*.

As an example of the standard of equipment used by a " huge orc chieftain" in Moria, it uses its hide shield to deflect Boromirs attack before jabbing Frodo with its spear.
Now if a huge orc chieftain is carting a shield made of mere animal skin (i.e. leather equivalent), then the image I gather of these troops is lightly armoured, and therefore faster moving troops: more like cheetahs than tigers. To me, Orcs are more opportunistic ambush attackers: quick to charge in and quick to run off when it gets tough. And if you can accept that, heavy armour just does not fit with the image of orcs met on adventures. For the same reasons our PC s don't often wear heavy mail, orcs wouldn't.

(Wild rant over: @Inculta - its not your post to blame, just my over sensitivity on an old sore point.)


* This idea might be why Orlando Bloom advises the elves at Helm Deep that the uruk armour is thick except at the neck. Darn those films.
 
Inculta
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Mon 06 Dec 2021, 11:27

That orc chieftain was "clad in black mail." Not a definitive descriptor, but still, he was definitely protected. Tolkien occasionally uses "mail-clad knights" in dialogues, so to me it implies something being "mail-clad" is the equivalent of being "knightly", or fairly heavy. I think that large orcs, or uruks and uruk-hai, being heavily-armored is reasonable. While they're shorter than men and elves, they're often said to be stockier, just like dwarves, so it'd add up in my opinion. I don't remember if the casualties of that skirmish outside Fangorn are stated, but I do know that uruks didn't make up the majority of that force. They were also ambushed at night by cavalry and the numbers of both sides were fairly even. I know of several historical skirmishes where a small number of cavalry with the element of surprise overran and defeated significantly larger groups of infantry, so I wouldn't use that as a definite example of uruks or orcs being that much more inferior on the field. All in all they'll be worse-trained and shorter, meaning significantly less reach, but the idea of uruks or some orcs being bigger in weight and muscle than men and elves seems reasonable to me, again just like dwarves can be. The book's Great Orcs are quite a bit stronger than early-mid PCs are in terms of Endurance, for example.
 
Themadviolinist
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Mon 06 Dec 2021, 14:56

I think there were about 200 orcs in total in Ugluk/Grishnakh's troop. There were four score of the Isengard uruks who wore helms, but I don't recall other armor being mentioned, same with the orcs from Lugburz and the mines.
 
Woodrow Skillson
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Tue 07 Dec 2021, 02:27

It makes sense from a historical standpoint. The concept of extremely heavy infantry was mostly limited to knights that fought on horseback. In several battles it was recorded that foot knights couldn't even get back up if they got knocked down. Heavy armor was used to offset how vulnerable they were on horseback in melee combat, and horses were used to offset how heavy their armor was. Dwarves and Orcs having heavy armor is fine for lore reasons. Remember that you can raise your Endurance, and I think there are cultural blessings that reduce the penalty of armor too.

Within the equipment set available in TOR, none of it would qualify as "extremely heavy" infantry. A mail shirt, helm, large shield, and a spear was standard armament for many medieval armies. Mail was commonly worn by footsoldiers from the classical period onwards. In the medieval and renaissance periods, heavy plate armor was worn by footsoldiers as well.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ec/1e/45 ... 893c75.jpg

And movement while wearing plate was fine, as knights were expected to be able to leap onto their horses in full harness.
https://youtu.be/q-bnM5SuQkI

it makes clear sense that adventurers would not walk around with 50+lbs of armor on, and that even a large shield would be encumbering to someone walking 20 miles in a day, so for the party, it is entirely sensible that they would not have that kind of stuff handy. However in the context of this thread, say a Helm's Deep scenario wherein the party is not travelling but defending a stronghold, there is not a good way to "up-armor" them without fiddling with other things. And additionally, should the party encounter a group of soldiers for whatever reason, they would not be armed in ways that historical soldiers would be.
 
Rasmus Nord
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Wed 08 Dec 2021, 23:42

Thanks for all the responses.

It seems like quite a few of the responses answered something, which wasn't the intent to question:
- I'm aware that characters can mitigate the Load with better gear or virtues.
- I don't question the rules in relation to how they work for a group of adventurers. I haven't played a game using the rules, but I'm sure it has been tested.

Having looked into the novels, it is actually very rare for Tolkien to describe heavily armoured footmen. I guess I'm too heavily influenced by the visuals of the art and the movies. It seems like the Tower Guard is the only "force" I can find that seem to be clad in mail, according to Tolkien, and I "buy" that they are experienced enough warriors to at least have a couple of virtues.

Tolkien mentions knights with mail, but they are on horses, and we don't have rules for that.

So, maybe those large scale units simply don't exist, except for the dwarves?
 
Woodrow Skillson
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Wed 15 Dec 2021, 18:59

So, maybe those large scale units simply don't exist, except for the dwarves?
hmm, possibly, though I'd need to re-read the section on Helms deep and the battle of Minas Tirth and see what gets mentioned. I found a couple discussions here that have some good refrences to the text. I would say that soldiers, i.e. the riders of Rohan, Gondorian soldiers, and likely town guards would have some kind of armor on, wealth dependent of course.
https://middle-earth.xenite.org/how-did ... ian-armor/
https://www.councilofelrond.com/weapon/ ... dle-earth/
 
Themadviolinist
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Thu 16 Dec 2021, 01:50

Given that Aragorn was able to lead 6,000 foot and 1,000 horse out from Minas Tirith on the march to the Black Gate, and given that in the description of the BAttle of the Pelennor Fields, we learn that once the gate has been freed, the forces of the city come out, led by Imrahil and the swan knights, but mostly of foot, it's pretty clear that the majority of Gondorian units are foot soldiers. Also see the description of the out-companies marching into Minas Tirith at the end of Book V Chapter I, most were on foot. Some were described as lightly armed, hill men and ethir folk. Others were not described in detail other than their numbers.
 
Yepesnopes
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Wed 22 Dec 2021, 12:24

Am I missing something? NPCs ( the bulk of any army) don't suffer from the idea of Weary. They have reduced Endurance to balance that.
That is the right way of seeing it in my opinion.

Armies, formed by NPCs, are totally ok represented within the rules of the game (be it 1st or 2nd ed).

Now, for PCs it is true that one might devise some ruling or house rule where the encumbrance of the armour is less impactful in the fatigue of the character if you just done it for the incoming battle, instead of wearing it the whole day.
 
Inculta
Posts: 55
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Tue 11 Jan 2022, 06:27

Thanks for all the responses.

It seems like quite a few of the responses answered something, which wasn't the intent to question:
- I'm aware that characters can mitigate the Load with better gear or virtues.
- I don't question the rules in relation to how they work for a group of adventurers. I haven't played a game using the rules, but I'm sure it has been tested.

Having looked into the novels, it is actually very rare for Tolkien to describe heavily armoured footmen. I guess I'm too heavily influenced by the visuals of the art and the movies. It seems like the Tower Guard is the only "force" I can find that seem to be clad in mail, according to Tolkien, and I "buy" that they are experienced enough warriors to at least have a couple of virtues.

Tolkien mentions knights with mail, but they are on horses, and we don't have rules for that.

So, maybe those large scale units simply don't exist, except for the dwarves?
To be honest I take it as one of those things where regardless of whether it's got explicit support in the source material or not, I'd go with whatever makes for a better visualization of the setting. I don't like all of Gondor's troops being in full plate armor in the movies, but at the same time I don't think they should all look like Greek hoplites. I typically meet in the middle and have plated/splinted mail be the heaviest armor, since mail with plates was available in the mid-medieval era, with plate cuisses and other partial plating dating back as far as Ancient Greece and Persia, while full plate was strictly late and invented almost exclusively in response to firearms becoming prevalent.
 
gyrovague
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Re: Heavily armoured armies are unviable

Wed 12 Jan 2022, 17:43

To be honest I take it as one of those things where regardless of whether it's got explicit support in the source material or not, I'd go with whatever makes for a better visualization of the setting. I don't like all of Gondor's troops being in full plate armor in the movies, but at the same time I don't think they should all look like Greek hoplites. I typically meet in the middle and have plated/splinted mail be the heaviest armor, since mail with plates was available in the mid-medieval era, with plate cuisses and other partial plating dating back as far as Ancient Greece and Persia, while full plate was strictly late and invented almost exclusively in response to firearms becoming prevalent.
Honestly, in my fantasy settings I like fantasy armor. The kinds of armor that drive simulationists and realists crazy. Studded leather, mixed plate and chain, dragon scale, etc.

That said, for Middle-earth...especially late T.A....I prefer a very utilitarian and even gritty aesthetic (with maybe a bit more bias toward decorative embellishment in Gondor). But definitely not anything remotely PJ.

YMMV.

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