Otaku-sempai
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Re: Extra Weapons

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 21:49

Good point about daggers I suppose... hmmm.

Although from a purely mechanical balance point of view a Dagger does have 0 load, (i.e everyone will have one). If the throwing knife was brawling it would be taking the -1d to use which neither the throwing axe nor the two thrown spears have to do.

Being able to throw a properly weighted weapon is a skill that needs practice – So it has to go into the main weapon group.

Otherwise you may get three party members with 3 in their respective weapon group - Sword/Axe/Spear, with a throwing weapon each Throwing knife/Throwing Axe/Short Spear.
If throwing Knife was in brawling then that party member would only roll 2d, the other two can throw at the full 3d for their respective weapon (and even throw a throwing knife of their own at the same 2d) seems a little harsh on player 1.

Have I convinced you yet OS?

Though looking at the throwing knife against the short spear they have the same damage and Injury rating. So perhaps for balance I should drop the damage of the throwing knife to 2. A throwing knife would be the same as a dagger then but can be thrown. It has to keep the Load 1 for balance though (otherwise everyone would take a dozen or so).

Throwing Knife 2 14 1 Swords Can be thrown
(still keeps the +1 pierce bonus)

I think that might be a better balance. What do you think?
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A Sling requires some skill and practice to use effectively as well. Perhaps such weapons as the Sling, Throwing Knife, Throwing Stick, etc. could be placed in an optional Combat Proficiency category called Exotic Weapons. Or a Hero could simply be allowed to specialize in the weapon (for the appropriate cost).
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gyrovague
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Re: Extra Weapons

Wed 27 Oct 2021, 21:59

I'll add that it has always felt a little "off" to me that Hobbits start with combat prowess in swords and bows roughly equal to any other culture. I accept it as a (somewhat) necessary adjustment in translating the fiction to an RPG, but it just kind of bugs me.

A rule that rewarded the choice of daggers/slings/clubs/staves would go a long way to mitigating that.
 
Asgo
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Re: Extra Weapons

Thu 28 Oct 2021, 00:32

I'll add that it has always felt a little "off" to me that Hobbits start with combat prowess in swords and bows roughly equal to any other culture. I accept it as a (somewhat) necessary adjustment in translating the fiction to an RPG, but it just kind of bugs me.

A rule that rewarded the choice of daggers/slings/clubs/staves would go a long way to mitigating that.
mostly due to the lack of non-attack alternatives in the combat system. While hanging back and letting others fight (effectively) is a perfectly reasonable character role in narrative terms it might get boring for the players in the long run. :)
If I remember correctly, the whole TN discussion started around success chances for strength ie combat situations.
While in almost any other game situation you can play to your strengths, here that option is limited, which makes it almost a requirement to give any starting character a similar start skill at least.

Which is also why I don't know if a dedicated skill for "less effective/martial" weapons would work in the long run. While you could probably balance it cost wise, I doubt the combat experience would improve over time.
 
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Aiden Harrison
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Re: Extra Weapons

Thu 28 Oct 2021, 01:47

If you are going for a scholar type then just choose to use brawling weapons and use your highest weapon skill -1d. If you've made the decision to be a non combatant then you will be subpar at fighting, so having a -1d fits. It's a role-playing choice.

To me, the brawling weapons cover the non military weapon choices or civilian weapons (another reason to put throwing knife in the swords group, certainly not a civilian weapon).

Yes, spears and axes can be civilian weapons too but they can also be used in battle more effectively than the weapons in the brawling group.
 
gyrovague
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Re: Extra Weapons

Thu 28 Oct 2021, 02:42

If you are going for a scholar type then just choose to use brawling weapons and use your highest weapon skill -1d. If you've made the decision to be a non combatant then you will be subpar at fighting, so having a -1d fits. It's a role-playing choice.

I, for one, would hate that solution. Weapon skills are progressively more expensive, but then to always play at the previous rank? And with inferior weapons on top of that? With no other benefit to compensate?

No, thanks. Sure, it’s flavorful, but in a punitive way.
 
Otaku-sempai
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Re: Extra Weapons

Thu 28 Oct 2021, 03:56

To me, the brawling weapons cover the non military weapon choices or civilian weapons (another reason to put throwing knife in the swords group, certainly not a civilian weapon).
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It's still incredibly counter-intuitive to place a Throwing Knife in the Swords group as they are not remotely used in the same manner. Training in swordmanship has absolutely no bearing on how one would use a Throwing Knife.
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Rafamir
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Re: Extra Weapons

Thu 28 Oct 2021, 04:09

If you are going for a scholar type then just choose to use brawling weapons and use your highest weapon skill -1d. If you've made the decision to be a non combatant then you will be subpar at fighting, so having a -1d fits. It's a role-playing choice.
This is precisely what a scholar in my game is doing. It means he weighs into the fray only when he must (e.g. against superior numbers) and if the party's in a tight spot, he'll spend Hope to improve his chances of landing a blow that does something. The rest of the time he does an excellent job advancing the story by contributing to the party's decisions and actions outside combat.
 
Themadviolinist
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Re: Extra Weapons

Thu 28 Oct 2021, 15:14

I'm not as troubled by the hobbit proficiencies, since the lower strength that hobbits start with covers the fact that the average hobbit warrior is going to be less effective than the average human warrior. FN et al have already flavor-balanced this consideration, though now that I think about it, this doesn't apply as readily to ranged weapons, which Tolkien specifically calls out as a hobbit advantage.
 
gyrovague
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Re: Extra Weapons

Thu 28 Oct 2021, 18:47

I'm not as troubled by the hobbit proficiencies, since the lower strength that hobbits start with covers the fact that the average hobbit warrior is going to be less effective than the average human warrior. FN et al have already flavor-balanced this consideration, though now that I think about it, this doesn't apply as readily to ranged weapons, which Tolkien specifically calls out as a hobbit advantage.
Yes, it's less of a factor in 2E. (If you didn't play 1E, you didn't add attribute to your roll unless you spent Hope, so your Strength...or Body...was less important.)

Still, for me, it's just the fact that all Hobbits start off with the same base rank of 2 in either sword or bow that strikes me as a game design decision, and an understandable one, that doesn't map well to the fiction. I can't think of a single Hobbit, in any of the books, for whom that would make sense. (And the same could be said for any number of non-martial character concepts from other cultures.)

And while I admire the roleplaying grit of people who would spend precious XP to get rank 3 in Sword/Axe/Spear, with the intent of only using a dagger at rank 2, I don't consider a sub-optimal workaround like that to be an indication of good game design. Even if you only use your dagger at rank 2, the fact is that your character is (on paper) even better with a sword than they are with a dagger. You're just choosing to ignore that.

I want to find a name other than "Brawling". Maybe "Common Weapons"? And, sure, for those with ranks in Sword/Axe/Spear I can see applying -1d when using those simple/common weapons. But I also think that intentionally limiting oneself to those weapons, without having to pay an XP "tax", should be a choice that is anticipated by the rules.
 
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Aiden Harrison
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Re: Extra Weapons

Fri 29 Oct 2021, 00:14

To me, the brawling weapons cover the non military weapon choices or civilian weapons (another reason to put throwing knife in the swords group, certainly not a civilian weapon).
.
It's still incredibly counter-intuitive to place a Throwing Knife in the Swords group as they are not remotely used in the same manner. Training in swordmanship has absolutely no bearing on how one would use a Throwing Knife.
Same for throwing a spear and using the spear skill, (or throwing an axe and using the axes skill, like I put forward).

Yes it is counter-intuitive I agree, but working within the confines of what is already in the book it seems the best solution. Not the most elegant I agree, but factoring in all the mechanical and feel good feeling at the table, it seems the best option. Of course it is all house rule anyway. In the end I can't see throwing knives being taken too often anyway, it was more for symmetry that I included it.

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