Otaku-sempai
Posts: 598
Joined: Wed 15 Apr 2020, 15:35
Location: Western New York

Re: Extra Weapons

Fri 29 Oct 2021, 18:05

If we were just keeping in the realms of weapon reskins (i.e not changing the stats just the name) would you allow a short spear to be called a throwing axe? would you allow it to be a throwing knife?
No, I would not.
.
If you did allow a reskin what skill would they use - not changing the stats it would be spears...weird.

If you changed it to axes for the throwing axe reskin that works.
If you changed it to brawling for throwing knife then... that seems punitive.... so you would have to allow swords to be used.
Axes group for Throwing Axe. Under my proposed scheme, Throwing Knife would start ranked as under Brawling, but could be it's own thing that could be improved through the use of Adventure points.
.
There that's it, that's my final point for throwing knives using the swords group.

Yes you could add a throwing weapons as an alternative weapons group as another option but that spreads those precious adventure points on an extra weapon group - will players want to do that?
Sorry, I don't find the argument to class Throwing Knives as Swords at all compelling.
.
Here are some other weapons from the Adventures in Middle-earth Player's Guide that I developed for TOR 1e:
.
Scimitar
Damage: 5
Edge: 10
Injury: 16
Encumbrance: 2
Group: Swords
Called Shot: Disarm
Notes: --
.
Heavy scimitar
Damage: 9
Edge: 10
Injury: 18
Encumbrance: 3
Group: Swords
Called Shot: Disarm
Notes: Two-handed weapon.
.
Hammer
Damage: 3
Edge: 10
Injury: 14
Encumbrance: 1
Group: Brawling
Called Shot: Break shield
Notes: Usable by Dwarves and Hobbits; Can be thrown (20/60). Workman's tool; an improvised weapon.
.
Warhammer
Damage: 5 (1h)/7 (2h)
Edge: 10
Injury: 16 (1h)/18 (2h)
Encumbrance: 3
Group: Blunt Martial Weapons (at Loremaster's discretion)
Called Shot: Break shield
Notes: Usable by Dwarves. Can be used with one or two hands.
.
Mace
Damage: 4
Edge: 10
Injury: 14
Encumbrance: 1
Group: Blunt Martial Weapons (at Loremaster's discretion)
Called Shot: Break shield
Notes: Usable by Dwarves and Hobbits.
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Fri 29 Oct 2021, 19:03, edited 6 times in total.
#FideltyToTolkien
 
User avatar
Harlath
Posts: 518
Joined: Sun 19 Jul 2020, 10:40

Re: Extra Weapons

Fri 29 Oct 2021, 18:20

I think the recently published Nature of Middle Earth confirms Numenorean steel bows as crossbows used for hunting? Apologies, don’t have the book to hand. But this came out after the core book was written and think TOR’s licence overs Hobbit and Lord of the Rings only.

If memory is correct some of us may want to reflavour the “Steel Bow” enchanted reward in light of the new information. :)
Dunno, I'm still reading the book. But as far as I know, the steel bows of the Numenoreans are not supposed to be crossbows. However, I might be mistaken.
With grateful thanks to "jota" over on the discord! :)

jota — Today at 4:39 PM
I believe that you refer to this paragraph:
"But no man wore a sword in Númenor, not even in the days of the wars in Middle-earth, unless he was actually armed for battle. Thus for long there were practically no weapons of warlike intent made in Númenor. Many things made could of course be so used: axes, and spears, and bows. The bowyers were a great craft. They made bows of many kinds: long bows, and smaller bows, especially those used for shooting from horse-back; and they also devised cross-bows, at first used mainly against predatory birds. Shooting with bows was one of the great sports and pastimes of men; and one in which young women also took part. The Númenórean men, being tall and powerful, could shoot with speed and accuracy upon foot from great long bows, whose shafts would carry to great distance (some 600 yards or more), and at lesser range were of great penetration. In later days, in the wars upon Middle-earth, it was the bows of the Númenóreans that were most greatly feared."
(J.R.R. Tolkien, The Nature of Middle-earth, my underlining) (edited)
[4:42 PM]
It does not mention that they are "steel bows" specifically, just that they made cross-bows. In the previous, separate paragraph, it mentions the metals found in Númenor: "Lead they also had. Iron and steel they needed most for the tools of the craftsmen and for the axes of the woodsmen." But it does not say that crossbows were made of steel, specifically, although it can be inferred that these crossbows were made of wood and metal, just like historical crossbows.
[4:44 PM]
(page 340 of The Nature of Middle-earth) (edited)"

Plus dug out some references to Steel Bows, so that bit of the core rulebook still works well! Foolish to have ever doubted the scholarship of the team. ;) Joking aside, there's impressive fidelity to the source throughout, so generally only "new" stuff like the recently published information on crossbows is likely to alter things.
 
Otaku-sempai
Posts: 598
Joined: Wed 15 Apr 2020, 15:35
Location: Western New York

Re: Extra Weapons

Fri 29 Oct 2021, 18:33

Well, as "cross-bows" didn't make it into the published canon, I think I'd still reserve them for exotic weapons of Rhunnish cultures for in-game purposes. Still, that's interesting.
#FideltyToTolkien
 
User avatar
Harlath
Posts: 518
Joined: Sun 19 Jul 2020, 10:40

Re: Extra Weapons

Fri 29 Oct 2021, 19:26

Well, as "cross-bows" didn't make it into the published canon, I think I'd still reserve them for exotic weapons of Rhunnish cultures for in-game purposes. Still, that's interesting.
A great approach!

I think thing like "Nature of Middle Earth" are good textual support for those looking to expand the weapon palate while those wanting to stick to specific books published in Tolkien's life can adopt that as a reasonable approach too!

I wouldn't have considered crossbows without the recent publication, but now wonder about one being discovered somewhere and the potential impact on the Free Peoples if they or their enemies discover them. Could boost trade/protect villages if even those with little training can defend themselves, or be grim news for the Free Peoples if the Enemy gained this knowledge. A decent adventure seed with interesting ramifications on the world. Or just an extra weapon option! Or nothing at all, for those who find it doesn't match their vision.
 
Otaku-sempai
Posts: 598
Joined: Wed 15 Apr 2020, 15:35
Location: Western New York

Re: Extra Weapons

Fri 29 Oct 2021, 21:59

Historically, crossbows were invented independently in both Ancient Greece and China. In Europe, the crossbow seems to have been lost to history until the weapon was redeveloped in the 11th Century. No reason why it couldn't have been invented more than once in Middle-earth.
#FideltyToTolkien
 
Inculta
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed 06 Oct 2021, 00:47

Re: Extra Weapons

Sat 30 Oct 2021, 01:05

In regards to crossbows.

Dodging around the notion of crossbows in Middle-Earth, I'll just say: Why would anyone bring a crossbow to a skirmish? It isn't really intended for such a roll, it was more of a siege weapon or limited open warfare in massed ranks. If you were a small band of scouts (ie the roll a band of adventurers might tackle) you would not bring a crossbow with you.

You could make an argument for a stealthy sniper type guy in a band of scouts but again why take a crossbow over a bow.

Just some random thoughts there.
Crossbows date back much further than some people think. In my opinion they don't "clash" with the setting at all, and honestly I've never really got why some people feel that way. People have argued over crossbows for a long time and it's one of those things where I just don't get why a lot of fans think they're completely unfaithful to the setting. I'll take them over MERP's skeleton warriors, anyway.
"again why take a crossbow over a bow."
Stopping power and simplicity/ease of use. Crossbows are easier to move around with while holding a shot, they need way less physical energy, they can hit as hard if not harder, and they can be aimed much more easily.
 
Otaku-sempai
Posts: 598
Joined: Wed 15 Apr 2020, 15:35
Location: Western New York

Re: Extra Weapons

Sat 30 Oct 2021, 02:34

Crossbows date back much further than some people think. In my opinion they don't "clash" with the setting at all, and honestly I've never really got why some people feel that way. People have argued over crossbows for a long time and it's one of those things where I just don't get why a lot of fans think they're completely unfaithful to the setting. I'll take them over MERP's skeleton warriors, anyway.
"again why take a crossbow over a bow."
Stopping power and simplicity/ease of use. Crossbows are easier to move around with while holding a shot, they need way less physical energy, they can hit as hard if not harder, and they can be aimed much more easily.
.
Crossbows feel out of place because: 1) they don't appear in the novels; and, 2) they are generally thought of as innovations of the late Medieval Period (few people realize how far back they really go). Also, Tolkien tended to shy away from that degree of technical innovation in the legendarium.
.
The stopping power of a crossbow is going to depend on the draw-strength, which will vary according to design, materials, etc., though even a conventional short bow (especially a recurved bow) can have a draw of 100 pounds or more. Heavier crossbows can be more powerful because they can be set though such methods as cranks and pulleys. As you note, they do have the advantage of being able to be kept at tension for extended periods.
#FideltyToTolkien
 
gyrovague
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: Extra Weapons

Sat 30 Oct 2021, 03:41

Crossbows date back much further than some people think. In my opinion they don't "clash" with the setting at all, and honestly I've never really got why some people feel that way.
Especially when it's being discussed as a house-rule. I don't like them either, but if somebody I will never game with wants to use them, I'm not going to waste electrons trying to talk them out of it.

Weapon stats and rules, on the other hand, are always interesting to consider and discuss.
 
Asgo
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 12:18

Re: Extra Weapons

Sat 30 Oct 2021, 10:37

Here's my take on crossbows.

New weapon quality: Must Reload
Crossbows need a main action to reload; you can still perform a secondary action after reloading.
On successful Prepared Shots, crossbows gain an extra 1d on the next ranged attack.

Crossbow
Damage 3
Injury 15
Load 3
Skill Group - Bows
Ranged weapon. Must reload.

Hunting Crossbow
Damage 4
Injury 17
Load 4
Skill Group - Bows
Ranged weapon. Must reload.

Heavy Crossbow
Damage 6
Injury 18
Load 6
Skill Group - Bows
Ranged weapon. Must reload.
when looking at a way to make crossbows feel distinct mechanically (compared to a pure bow reskin) I think a required reload action is potentially an interesting idea.
However it essentially cuts its sustained damage in half compared to a bow with one shot each round, so beyond flavor it might require an increase in damage output per hit.

Alternatively you could go with the abstract notion of "requiring less skill than bows/being more point and shot" (without going into a realism debate ;) ) and put crossbows into the brawling category and keep their damage output in the order of their bow equivalents and adding reloads and a bit of weight perhaps.
So they would essentially gain the unskilled use, but pay for it with required reloads, the lower number of to hit dice and a bit of extra weight.
I actually would also vary the reload requirements
- crossbow: 3/14 Load 3, Brawling, reload on main action: as bow equivalent
- heavy crossbow: 4/16, Load 5 Brawling, reload: main and secondary action: as Great Bow equivalent
and while we are at it
- light cross bow: 2/12 Load 2, Brawling, reload on secondary action, as something below bow
when talking opening of combat, I would say if the party came prepared a crossbow could be preloaded for the first shot/volley
if they are any additional volleys - for simplicity -time of a volley equals a reload, so depending on how many there are you either might be able to just reload for the first combat round or even loose another shot. (also depending on the situation, I probably wouldn't allow a reload action in full run)

My association for putting crossbows into brawling is more something like a city/towns guard where the main weapon is probably more a spear or sword category, but where they have (situational) access to crossbow for example for wall duty. Of course a dedicated crossbow man has the same issues mechanical and theme-wise as any other character with a primary weapon from the brawling category.

Of course a lot of the balance would depend on average combat duration.
 
Mordante
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu 21 May 2020, 23:14

Re: Extra Weapons

Sat 30 Oct 2021, 10:51

I could imagine a crossbow only being used by orks as they strike me as being unafraid to embrace technology and let's be honest crossbows are more sinister than Bows.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests