Inculta
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Re: Extra Weapons

Sat 30 Oct 2021, 12:03

Crossbows feel out of place because: 1) they don't appear in the novels; and, 2) they are generally thought of as innovations of the late Medieval Period (few people realize how far back they really go). Also, Tolkien tended to shy away from that degree of technical innovation in the legendarium.
I've never cared for the "if it doesn't appear in the novels, it shouldn't appear in a game" approach. Not sure if you mean it to that extreme, but I've seen that so many times over the years. Some people don't even add towns or villages to their maps for Middle-earth games if they weren't specifically mentioned in the novels. While I guess that's respectable purism, it's purism to the point of dullness, because to me the novels covered a very specific set of characters in very specific areas on a very specific path to a very specific place. There's worldbuilding in there, but almost everything with any detail is what's immediately important to the characters and the stories. To strictly adhere to that approach where Tolkien intentionally left out large amounts of world detail doesn't translate well to a game, where the story's important but you want it set in an interesting world, which you need more detail for and will inevitably have to take creative liberties with.

As for the "late innovations" idea, yeah, I'd say in general people probably think crossbows just picked up use shortly before guns did, but obviously they go back further. It's interesting to bring up how Tolkien would feel though, since apparently one of the earliest depictions of a crossbow in Northwestern Europe was found on Pictish stones in Scotland dated to as far back as the 400s, so well before the time period Tolkien would've intended to vaguely represent and in his general region/culture of choice for his stories' inspirations.
 
Dunheved
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Re: Extra Weapons

Sun 31 Oct 2021, 02:32

I was going to leave this thread alone, as House rules about weapons are just interesting things to view for me. The RAW weapons are more than enough, and I was (am) more content with TOR1e than TOR2e weapons. But people come up with such interesting flavours to add to the weapons of NPC.

But something about Mattocks is implied, and although it generally seems to be followed by players already, so maybe it should be unnecessary to state this, but, for me, Mattocks should be almost exclusively wielded by Dwarves. Other cultures need not apply: after all, there is zero in the RAW to stop a hobbit gaining proficiency with a mattock. Size is not a strong argument as dwarves aren't that much bigger.

( I could consider one exception, e.g. "Raised in a dwarf community, Corporal Carrot had spent long years of his youth exercising with the same techniques and tools as his foster kin. He was unique in his own experience as the only non- dwarf wielder of the famed Mattock. Note: When raising a combat proficiency in Mattocks, Carrot must spend those advancement points while staying at a dwarf community for that fellowship phase. ")
 
Inculta
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Re: Extra Weapons

Mon 01 Nov 2021, 01:01

I feel like mattocks should get some kind of special edge to represent how deadly they'd be against armor. Maybe heavier weight and a higher critical value?
 
Dunheved
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Re: Extra Weapons

Mon 01 Nov 2021, 01:50

@ Inculta.
I think Axes are currently overpowered generally. Keeping Mattocks as they are and reducing the overall quality of all the other axes would suit me more. E.g. dropping all other axes by 1 damage seems a good start to re-balancing this.

If I were a new player, I'd be reluctant to pick up any other close combat weapon. And there are very few axes in LotR/Hobbit except for dwarves, so I would feel that I was not making a PC with the right feel for canon.
 
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Aiden Harrison
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Re: Extra Weapons

Mon 01 Nov 2021, 17:39

Beornings, Woodsmen, Dunlendings, Rohirrim, Easterlings, Men of Lossarnach, Elves of Gondolin... nah no axes there, move along.

Axes would be second only to spears in terms of use in almost all cultures.
 
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Aiden Harrison
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Re: Extra Weapons

Mon 01 Nov 2021, 17:43

A couple more weapons to add to the list. They are lighter versions of other weapons. Interesting options for people who want ranged weapons for ambushes and opening volleys but want to keep the weight down.

Light Throwing Axe 3 14 1 Axes Can be thrown
Short Bow 3 12 1 Bows Ranged Weapon, Two handed
 
Dunheved
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Re: Extra Weapons

Tue 02 Nov 2021, 00:59

Whoops! Sorry AidenH. When I mention LotR/hobbit, I never remember the influence of the films. But any images that PJ has for the cultures of the Free Peoples using axes doesn't resonate with me.

I did type "few" axes, not "no" axes btw. And I accept entirely that it is perfectly reasonable to describe all those cultures you list as having axe fighters in their armies. But again, in the Tolkien novels, axe use in combat is not emphasised nor described - except by the dwarves of course.

Spears, swords and bows are the weapons that Tolkien gives to his heroes (dwarves excepting) and to the Free Folk of the era of the hobbits. I just happen to dislike the over emphasis given to the powers of axes by the Core RAW. If axes were that good in Middle Earth then why didn't Tolkien equip them all with axes?

I don't want any rationale from outside Middle Earth used - instead, I want to feel that this game is reflecting a sympathetic emphasis to the fantasy story created by the professor. And by that standard, I'd not support cross-bow use either, unless it was somewhat exotic or rare in origin.

Yes, have axes by all means, but not the weapons described in TOR2e page 100 that would encourage me to choose Long Handled Axe by default.

Axe use as weapons does not come across to me as widespread by the Free People's at the end of the Third Age of Middle Earth.
 
Asgo
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Re: Extra Weapons

Tue 02 Nov 2021, 02:10

Tolkien doesn't necessarily put any emphasis on comparative strengths of weapon types beyond their origin or craftsmanship.
He definitely uses them for cultural distinction.
Beyond that, there are always cultural preferences and martial traditions that doesn't necessarily reflect absolute comparative strength.

With regard to the mechanical strengths of the axes in 2e, well I suspect three things:
1. a practical consequence of a high abstraction level and limited unique weapon properties is, that different weapons have to be differently strong to feel different in absence of strong mechanical differences. Otherwise you could just say: "small, medium, large weapon - choose type and skill for flavor"
2. as dwarves have a strong combat oriented character layout and are, as mentioned, iconically associated with axes, choosing axes as the stronger choice might have been intentionally
3. just going by LotR/hobbit, thematically, I would suspect finding weapons of special make (i.e. with mechanical boni) more common for swords than axes, so giving them a "base value" bonus might work out well in the end from a balance perspective ;)
 
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Aiden Harrison
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Re: Extra Weapons

Wed 03 Nov 2021, 17:25

Whoops! Sorry AidenH. When I mention LotR/hobbit, I never remember the influence of the films. But any images that PJ has for the cultures of the Free Peoples using axes doesn't resonate with me.

Not sure what you mean here Dun, I was talking about the books.

Remember it is easier to get a piercing blow with a sword or spear, that is one thing the axe lacks.
 
Dunheved
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Re: Extra Weapons

Thu 04 Nov 2021, 01:18

I mentioned the films* as there is an image in my head of the charge at Pelennor where one Rohan figure is riding with a shouldered axe. When I remember Legolas' description of Eomers men (books again) it is about the sun glinting on their spears that is the image evoked, and the one that settles in my mind. MY Rohirrim use spears and swords ( and horse bows when those rules arrive again!)

And FOR ME, axes currently have both a great Damage rating and a great Injury rating, but a poorer Wounding frequency (Not so Edgey!). This is two positive and one negative. I see a better balance where axes are the weapons with best Injury effect and worst Wounding frequency. i.e. one positive and one negative. They don't need great damage as well imho.


As the thread is about Extra Weapons I see the Mattock as an extra weapon already added by the design team, and would encourage its use for dwarves (almost) exclusively.
But other weapons from other people are always useful for flavour.



*meant to say that the influence of the films was on me. It doesnt read much that way though - sorry for poor typing.

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