Mordante
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A couple of council skill use questions..

Fri 15 Oct 2021, 11:40

..I was wondering if someone could throw some light on these for me? How is the riddle and sing skill used? How does it present/come across?

I can't get my head around the fact that someone could just burst into song in a meeting!
 
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Harlath
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Joined: Sun 19 Jul 2020, 10:40

Re: A couple of council skill use questions..

Fri 15 Oct 2021, 12:04

Song: can also be used to recite poems, so a few lines of an appropriate verse can help steer a negotiation. Plus there are various occasions in the source material where people sing at meetings! It's a different culture to the ones most of us are used to. p123 has rules for using specific Songs to alleviate the Weary effect in Journeys/Councils/Combat, as well as the standard use of Song in any normal encounter.

Riddle: riddle contests, naturally but also for being elusive in conversation/concealing things, for deduction/putting clues together and for tricking trolls to reduce their Hate (p151). p61-65 of the core rules is really good at laying out how particular skills can be used. Can sometimes thing of it as "reasoning"/logic, plus it has a social element.
 
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William
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Joined: Thu 24 Apr 2014, 16:48

Re: A couple of council skill use questions..

Sat 16 Oct 2021, 01:19

In our world it would indeed be weird to suddenly burst into song during a meeting. I speak from experience.

But this is Middle-Earth! Singing is an essential part of almost every culture; people sing to express their joy, sorrow, anger, confusion etc. etc.

It was the song of the Dwarves that awoke something in Bilbo that fateful evening:

As they sang the hobbit felt the love of beautiful things made by hands and by cunning
and by magic moving through him, a fierce and jealous love, the desire of the hearts of
dwarves. Then something Tookish woke up inside him, and he wished to go and see the
great mountains, and hear the pine-trees and the waterfalls, and explore the caves, and
wear a sword instead of a walking stick.


It was the singing of the elves that made the biggest impression on Sam:

Sam could never describe in words, nor picture clearly to himself, what he felt or thought that night, though it remained in his memory as one of the chief events of his life. The nearest he ever got was to say: ‘Well, sir, if I could grow apples like that, I would call myself a gardener. But it was the singing that went to my heart, if you know what I mean.’


Aragorn describes the people of Rohan like this:

‘I have been among them,’ answered Aragorn. ‘They are proud and wilful, but they are true-hearted, generous in thought and deed; bold but not cruel; wise but unlearned, writing no books but singing many songs, after the manner of the children of Men before the Dark Years.


And later, he sang to Gimli and Legolas in the language of the Eorlingas:

Now they call this land their home, their own, and their speech is sundered from their northern kin.’ Then he began to chant softly in a slow tongue unknown to the Elf and Dwarf; yet they listened, for there was a strong music in it.


When it comes to riddles, it's the only wise way to speak with dragons. Ask Bilbo!

"I am the friend of bears and the guest of eagles. I am Ringwinner and Luckwearer; and I
am Barrel-rider," Bilbo went on, beginning to be pleased with his riddling


And Frodo is wise enough to speak in riddles with Faramir:

Frodo told many tales, yet always he steered the matter away from the quest of the Company and from the Ring, enlarging rather on the valiant part Boromir had played in all their adventures, with the wolves of the wild, in the snows under Caradhras, and in the mines of Moria where Gandalf fell. Faramir was most moved by the story of the fight on the bridge.


Gandalf warns Pippin to be cautious when speaking with Denethor:

[...] Do not tell him more than you need, and leave quiet the matter of Frodo’s errand. I will deal with that in due time.


It can feel weird to incorporate these parts into a roleplaying session, but I urge you to try it out. It's a very integral part of Tolkien's Middle-Earth.
  • Your players enounters an elf minstrel in the otherwise empty lands of Eriador. If they stay, she sings of the stars high above - A song of longing and sorrow.
  • Suddenly, during a council, a song erupts from the lips of a ranger. The song reminds the opposition of ancient oaths taken by their forefathers.
  • "My name must remain a secret. Let me give you the answer to another riddle instead."
Last edited by William on Sat 16 Oct 2021, 01:48, edited 1 time in total.
 
gyrovague
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Re: A couple of council skill use questions..

Sat 16 Oct 2021, 01:37

In our world it would indeed be weird to suddenly burst into song during a meeting. I speak from experience.
It would be weird to burst into song, but I’ve quoted movies and song lyrics in meetings, to positive effect. I think that’s a rough analogue.

It’s a way of saying, “We have a shared experience, we get each other.”
 
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William
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Joined: Thu 24 Apr 2014, 16:48

Re: A couple of council skill use questions..

Sat 16 Oct 2021, 01:53

In our world it would indeed be weird to suddenly burst into song during a meeting. I speak from experience.
It would be weird to burst into song, but I’ve quoted movies and song lyrics in meetings, to positive effect. I think that’s a rough analogue.

It’s a way of saying, “We have a shared experience, we get each other.”
A meant meeting as in a real-life meeting at work. I recite poems and songs all the time during roleplaying sessions ;)
 
gyrovague
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Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: A couple of council skill use questions..

Sat 16 Oct 2021, 04:54

In our world it would indeed be weird to suddenly burst into song during a meeting. I speak from experience.
It would be weird to burst into song, but I’ve quoted movies and song lyrics in meetings, to positive effect. I think that’s a rough analogue.

It’s a way of saying, “We have a shared experience, we get each other.”
A meant meeting as in a real-life meeting at work. I recite poems and songs all the time during roleplaying sessions ;)
Yes, I did too.

E.g., I used to work in private equity, and in a meeting with a prospect the management team was enumerating their competition, and how they were going to crush each of them. After 4 or 5 in a row I said, “Niedermeier? Dead!” (That’s from Animal House, for the less cultured among Ye.)
 
Asgo
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Re: A couple of council skill use questions..

Sat 16 Oct 2021, 06:30

also, songs and rhymes are common way keep and relay history and information, in particular in societies where access to books or reading skills are limited.
So reciting something relevant via Song could essentially be a Lore alternative - in terms of game skills.
In a way, the ring verses convey basic information about who had rings of power.
 
Dunheved
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Location: UK

Re: A couple of council skill use questions..

Sat 16 Oct 2021, 08:58

I suspect modern use of the Song / Riddle effect includes those things that are called memes ?
Or particular gestures exhibited by sportsfolk and comedy acts.
 
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Aiden Harrison
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Re: A couple of council skill use questions..

Sat 16 Oct 2021, 16:29

Riddle can be used to say something without saying it directly. Or in reverse to read between the lines.

It can sort of be thought of as the opposite of Awe, its about being subtle and witty and slightly guarded.

Modern people use the Riddle 'skill' all the time.

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