mrdabakkle
Posts: 75
Joined: Mon 01 Jun 2020, 18:15

Re: Councils - My House Rules

Sat 16 Oct 2021, 23:51

What kinds of bonuses would the approach give? I also want to leave one more comment to play a bit of devil's advocate. I want to preface this with that I like what I see here so far, but one thing that we should consider when talking about risk and reward is the special success table. So in the rules as written Tengwars can achieve a special success, and in Councils the most likley one to pick would be a success to beat the resistance. As LMs though we should consider the other options too though, and even come up with new ones that make sense for roleplay situations like Stunts in the Fantasy Age system for instance. Maybe getting an extra success to resistance isn't the best option, maybe a player can pick widen influence to change the hearts and minds of other people not directly in the council but present at the meeting. Or the gain insight, to see that one LMC is plotting something sinister like Bill Ferny at the Pony. Any number of complications that might arise, but are not directly related to the goal at hand.
The One Ring and Adventure's in Middle-earth Discord Server: https://discord.me/theonering
The One Ring Subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/oneringrpg/
 
TryhardLM
Topic Author
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat 25 Sep 2021, 14:01

Re: Councils - My House Rules

Sun 17 Oct 2021, 02:01

What kinds of bonuses would the approach give?

Originally, I was thinking the Loremaster would secretly choose at least one Approach that would be especially effective (a surprise +1d to the Skills listed under that Approach) against the audience and at least one Approach that would be ineffective (a surprise -1d to the Skills listed under that Approach).

Now that I've done a solo playtest with Approaches though, I don't know if I'll keep it. It seems distracting compared to the smooth simplicity of TOR 2e.

Maybe getting an extra success to resistance isn't the best option, maybe a player can pick widen influence to change the hearts and minds of other people not directly in the council but present at the meeting. Or the gain insight, to see that one LMC is plotting something sinister like Bill Ferny at the Pony.

Fine point! I think the Loremaster could easily make a Council more interesting by including complications like these. They wouldn't even need to change any rules, though they might set a separate Resistance for any secondary parties that can be swayed (like if the Company were trying to sway both the Master of Lake-town and Bard at the same time).

It looks like we've landed on a few solid, easy ways to add interesting risk:reward to Councils:
  • Include more than just one other interested party in the audience. It's even better if one of them has hidden motives. This allows you to use the Special Success table in fun ways (e.g. to widen influence or gain insight).
  • Pick a few Skills the audience enjoys, a few Skills they hate, and a few preferences they have (e.g. likes to hear about killing goblins; hates to hear about the greed of dwarves).
  • Whenever players find out that a Skill or Preference would grant a penalty die, tell the players that trying to beat those odds and succeeding on it would replenish 1 Hope.
  • Whenever players get a bonus for using the right Skill or aligning with one of the LMC's preferences, the LM shouldn't reveal exactly what granted that bonus. They can hint at it, but it's better to get the players wondering. As mentioned in other posts, players could roll Insight next to find out the specifics, or they could use a Tengwar to Gain Insight.
 
Mordante
Posts: 183
Joined: Thu 21 May 2020, 23:14

Re: Councils - My House Rules

Sun 17 Oct 2021, 08:52

I just wanted to say how much I appreciate everyone's thoughts on trying to improve how Councils work and also to say please don't give up working on this!
 
Niallism
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 13:56

Re: Councils - My House Rules

Mon 18 Oct 2021, 02:40

Bribery doesn't sound very Tolkien. A gift that reflects Courtesy - something meaningful, whether some food made by a Hobbit, or something beautiful made by an Elf - that's fine. But simple Treasure? Not very Tolkien at all.

Anyway, I have to say that with fictional positioning on rolls, changing the situation due to the results of every roll, and the Consequences of Failure rules, I find Councils fine already.
 
TryhardLM
Topic Author
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat 25 Sep 2021, 14:01

Re: Councils - My House Rules

Mon 18 Oct 2021, 06:52

Fair point! I did some searching for the word gift in the books and found that the giving of valuable things usually came from the hosts, not the guests, so I would have to agree that the way I originally planned to use gifts just isn't Tolkien, Niallism.

I would also agree that the items you listed (fictional positioning, situational changes, and the Consequences of Failure guidelines) give Councils some interesting dynamics, but it's mechanically not enough for me personally.

These are the big concerns for me:
  • I wanted the book to give me a few more knobs and levers to adjust, like ways to change the audience's attitude or reasons to roll a skill with a lower rating over a skill with a higher one.
  • An official random events table during Councils would be a lot of fun, would reflect the Journeys rules nicely, and would help with those situational changes.
  • One thing that just doesn't make sense is how the time limit is longer if you're asking for something outrageous.
  • We also don't have any guidelines for how to add more requests or make some concessions during the Interaction.
 
TryhardLM
Topic Author
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat 25 Sep 2021, 14:01

Re: Councils - My House Rules

Mon 18 Oct 2021, 06:55

All right! After our discussion here, I have revised. Again, big shoutout to gyrovague for starting the original thread that got these wheels turning in my brain.

These are the new house rules I plan to use for Councils.

TL;DR:
I edited many lines for clarity.
I cut the idea of Skills granting a bonus to using certain other Skills after them. It was too much to track without a fun payoff.
I cut Gifts entirely because it seems like every example of gifts being given in Tolkien's fiction involves someone with power rewarding the heroes. The guests don't seem to give any gifts. The hosts do.
(Credit to Niallism for changing my mind here. Thanks!)
I added more Skill options to the Interaction. We're now at 10 Skills that have examples of their uses (my 5 examples plus the original 5 in the Core Rules).
I added a few tips to help other Loremasters in making these new rules work smoothly.
I mention some ways to use superior successes rather than just using Tengwars to raise the total successes in the Council.
I added some options for the ending phase of the Council.


Design Philosophy: These house rules are meant to add interesting choices and more surprises to a Council.

Council Procedure

1. List Primary Goals, Secondary, Goals, and Services
Before the Council, establish what the heroes want.
Players set their Primary Goal, the bare minimum thing they need to achieve from this Council.
Players brainstorm a few Secondary Goals, things that would be nice on top of the Primary Goal.
Players also list some Services they could provide that the audience won't ask for but that might sweeten the pot for the audience (like how Pippin didn't need to volunteer his service to Denethor).
Rationale: Secondary Goals and Services will work like bargaining chips later, so we need to isolate them from each other.
Tip: Players should put their Primary Goal, each of their Secondary Goals, and each of their Services on separate index cards for easy reference. Everyone will have a better time if they know exactly what is being negotiated at each point in the Council.

Example:
A hobbit Messenger named Tobold Tunnelly arrives at the Prancing Pony to meet Balin.
Everyone's talking about how Balin is recruiting adventurers to search for missing dwarves who were seeking more passes through the Misty Mountains.
Tobold hears from people gossiping that the job involves returning any survivors to Bree, along with the remains of any dwarves who perished.

Tobold is about to have a Council!

He sets his Primary Goal as being paid well enough to live comfortably for a year for each missing dwarf he delivers alive -- and half a year's wages for each dwarf whose remains he delivers.
His player writes it on an index card just so it's clear to everyone what he wants to achieve.

He writes his Secondary Goals on cards too:
  • Tobold might ask for an extra pony from Balin for the adventure
  • He also might ask Balin to introduce and recommend Tobold to Gandalf so that Tobold might be picked for future adventures
  • Thirdly, he might ask for a one-of-a-kind magical treasure from Erebor as a reward.


Next, the player writes down the Services he might be willing to offer without Balin asking for them:
  • Tobold might offer to return any dwarf-made treasure he discovers to Balin.
  • He also might offer to deliver any news/letters Balin might have to any people along the way. (Tobold is a Messenger, after all.)


Tobold can't think of anything else without actually talking to Balin, so we move on to the next step.


2. Set Resistance
The LM tells the players if their Primary Goal will be considered Reasonable (3 successes needed), Bold (6), or Outrageous (9).
Optionally, the LM might mentally note if certain Secondary Goals would raise the Resistance or if some Services would lower it.
That said, it is probably better to wait until the players actually bring these items up during the Interaction since they might not come up at all.
Players can decide during the Council which Secondary Goals and Services they want to mention.

Example:
The LM tells Tobold's player that his Primary Goal is Reasonable, so the Resistance. Tobold will need to roll 3 successes during the Council.
For now, this is all that the LM tells the player.

(Optional) The LM mentally notes that Tobold could even ask for that extra pony without raising the Resistance.
What would raise the limit to Bold, however, would be asking for an introduction to Gandalf with Balin's recommendation. (That wizard is hard to find, and Balin might not want to recommend Tobold, depending on how successful Tobold is with this quest.)
The LM decides that if Tobold asks for that, then the Resistance will rise to Bold, UNLESS Tobold offers one of the two Services he listed.
Getting a one-of-a-kind magical treasure from Balin would certainly raise the limit to Bold as well, the LM decides, UNLESS Tobold offers the Service of giving Balin any dwarvish artifacts he finds.
If Tobold asks for both a recommendation to Gandalf AND a piece of magical treasure, then the Resistance would be Outlandish, the LM decides.
To lower this Resistance back down to Bold, Tobold would need to offer BOTH Services he listed -- returning any dwarvish artifacts AND delivering some news/letters along the way.


3. The Goodwill Pool
This dice pool represents, well, the goodwill between the heroes and the audience. It is essentially temporary Hope points that expire when the Council ends.

Start a pool of extra success dice that can be spent on any roll during the Council.

Add/Subtract dice for the following:
  • Add 1d for each point of Valour that the hero with the highest score has.
  • Add 1d for each point of Wisdom that the hero with the highest score has.
  • Add 1d if the Company is (at least seemingly) arriving from a place the audience admires.
  • Subtract 1d if the Company is (at least seemingly) arriving from a place the audience fears or shuns.
  • Subtract 1d if the Company is openly carrying weapons in violation of custom or courtesy.
Player-heroes can spend one die or more from this pool at a time during the Council.
Rationale: This makes whether or not to use them one at a time or all at once an interesting choice.)

All unspent Goodwill dice are lost after the Council ends.

Tip: Actually put some dice somewhere on the table so that everyone can see how many Goodwill dice they could use.
Tip: If you don't like the Goodwill Pool idea but still think the listed items above are worth considering during a Council, consider replacing each Goodwill die with 1 free Hope the Company regains, or use the list above to help you set the audience's Attitude or change their Resistance.

4. Strategy Roll
To prepare, the Loremaster should make a short list of details the audience enjoys or detests.
Types of details to put on the list could include Skills, Individuals, Cultures, Callings, Distinctive Features, and perspectives (e.g. Bard's perspective might be that Smaug should not be disturbed.)
The Loremaster should keep this list secret from the players.

Example:
The Elvenking enjoys Courtesy, Song, wine, silver and white gems, feasts
The Elvenking detests the spiders of Mirkwood, goblins, the stubbornness of dwarves, trespassers in his lands


Player-heroes can make a Strategy Roll using Scan, Insight, or Lore.
A successful Strategy Roll reveals: 1 detail the audience enjoys or detests.
For each Success icon, the Company may choose to learn 1 more detail about that audience or learn 1 detail about another person who will be in the Council.

Bonuses and Penalties from Details the Audience Enjoys or Detests
If a Player-hero uses a Skill that their audience particularly enjoys or detests -- or if the Player-hero's delivered speech connects the Company’s goal to a detail that their audience particularly likes or dislikes -- then the Loremaster can grant the Player-hero a bonus or penalty (+1d, +2d, -1d, or -2d) to the Skill roll.

Keep It Secret
Unless the Player-heroes have learned the source of a bonus or penalty through the Strategy Roll, the Loremaster should NOT reveal what exactly granted a bonus or penalty whenever they tell the player to roll with one.
Players can spend a turn during the Interaction phase by rolling Insight to find out why they received a bonus or penalty.
Rationale: Leaving players wondering why they received a bonus or penalty gives them an interesting choice between pressing on without that knowledge or spending a whole turn to find out a detail that could really aid them.

Risk for Reward
When a player succeeds on a Skill roll that has received a penalty from a detail that the audience dislikes, the Player-hero regains 1 Hope for each penalty die that was applied to that roll.
Example: Bard is meeting with Thorin to discuss compensation for killing a dragon. Thorin is barricaded inside Erebor. Bard's Strategy Roll revealed that he would receive a penalty (-1d) whenever Bard shows himself to be aligned with the elves. If Bard shows up with the elves or mentions his alliance with them while roleplaying but still succeeds on that penalized roll, Bard regains 1 Hope.
Rationale: This rule gives players a reason to use a skill that has a penalty. It also represents how overcoming an obstacle can give someone hope.

Resolving a Concern
The Loremaster may allow players to spend a success icon so that a detail that the audience detests will no longer apply penalties (i.e. the Player-heroes have addressed their audience’s concern effectively).
Example: Gandalf is meeting with Beorn. Gandalf is requesting lodging for his party of mostly dwarves, but Beorn isn't exactly fond of dwarves. Gandalf uses Riddle, using clever speech as he tells a long story and introduces the dwarves a few at a time. The roll is made with a penalty, but Gandalf succeeds anyway. Now Beorn isn't so grumpy about the dwarves being there, and there is no longer a penalty due to Beorn's disliking of dwarves.
Rationale: This rule gives players another interesting option when they have some success icons to spend. They can decide if it's better to add another success to their running total in the Council or if they want to end a recurring penalty.

Improving the Audience's Attitude
If the players figure out (through an Insight roll or simply clever estimation) what detail exactly granted a bonus to a roll, they can use that detail on a subsequent roll to gain the bonus again. If they do so AND spend 1 Hope or 1 Goodwill AND succeed on the subsequent roll, the audience's Attitude improves by one level (reluctant to open; open to friendly).
Example: Bilbo wants to survive a Council with Smaug. He realizes Smaug likes when he speaks in Riddles, so Bilbo uses that skill a second time and spends 1 Hope. He succeeds, and Smaug's Attitude changes from Reluctant to Open.
Rationale: This adds yet another tactical choice for the players. "Do we want to try improving their attitude, or do we want to save our Hope since our Hope would be wasted if the roll doesn't succeed?"

Worsening the Audience's Attitude
If the Company fails twice on rolls that have received a penalty due to a detail the audience detests, the audience's Attitude worsens by one level (friendly to open; open to reluctant).
Example: Gandalf wants to convince a group of people that the One Ring must be destroyed, but Boromir's perspective is that the ring should be used. Any roll that opposes Boromir's perspective is rolled with a penalty against him. Gandalf fails to convince Boromir when he uses Awe by speaking the language of Mordor, and he fails again when he tries to Persuade Boromir that the ring is too dangerous to wield. Boromir's Attitude changes from open to reluctant.
Rationale: This doesn't really add a new choice, but it does add more risk. Now players will want to be more careful about navigating the details their audience detests.

Tip: To get the most of the rules above, Loremasters can add interesting moments of decision by:
  • Telling a player that their best Skill would have a penalty, while also reminding that player that succeeding on it would replenish some Hope (e.g. you find encouragement that your song appeals to the audience despite their distaste for songs).
  • Telling a player that the audience dislikes the very topic that the player wants to ask about during the Council. Remind the player that if they ignore that preference and bring up the topic anyway, their roll would have a penalty, but if they succeed despite the penalty, they regain some Hope.
  • Including more than just one other interested party in the audience. This allows you to use the Special Success table in more ways than just gaining extra total successes (e.g. Player-heroes could widen influence over another important member of the Council or gain insight on a suspicious third party in the room).
Don't overuse any strategy, of course. The goal is to add interesting decisions and to reward risks.
Don't try to make all choices completely equal; that's just erasing choice entirely.

Tip: Players should write each piece of information gleaned from the Strategy roll and their Interaction rolls on an index card to remind themselves of the bonuses and penalties.

5. Time Limit
Rationale: I personally dislike the rule that heroes who make an Outrageous request would actually get MORE chances to roll during Interaction than heroes who make a Reasonable request.
If anything, people run out of patience faster when asked for outrageous things.

Here's my alternative:
  • The Time Limit is 6 for Heroes whose Primary Goal request is Reasonable (requiring 3 successes).
  • The Time Limit is 5 for Heroes whose Primary Goal request is Bold (requiring 6 successes).
  • The Time Limit is 4 for Heroes whose Primary Goal request is Outrageous (requiring 9 successes).
Rationale: At first glance, it may seem like succeeding with a Reasonable Primary Goal would be too easy and that an Outrageous goal would be nearly impossible. Remember, however, that Secondary Goals and Services haven't been considered yet.
  • Players can offer Services to try raising the Time Limit by lowering the Resistance from Outrageous to Bold or from Bold to Reasonable.
  • Players can use any extra rolls after they succeed on the Primary Goal to pursue Secondary Goals, which might increase the Resistance from Reasonable to Bold or even Outrageous if they're not careful.
This gives us a real sense of negotiation, of pushing one's luck, and I personally like the tension and fun of it.[/b]

You can also increase your Time Limit with the Introduction Roll. (See below.)

6. Introduction Roll
Player-heroes usually choose between Awe, Courtesy, and Riddle for the Introduction. See the Core Rules for the advantages and disadvantages of each.
If you use a different skill, talk with the Loremaster to set the advantage and disadvantage of that skill, just as these three skills have upsides and downsides.

Tip: While roleplaying, the spokesperson may consider not just how their character performs their Skill but also how they present the Primary Goal.

Results of the Introduction Roll
  • If the roll is a success, raise the Time Limit by one plus the number of success icons.
  • If the roll is a failure, lower the time limit by one.
Rationale: I wanted failure to have more of a consequence here than it does in the Core Rules, so instead of failure having no effect on the Time Limit, it lowers the Time Limit.

7. Attitude
Just as the core rules say, the LM sets the audience's Attitude as Friendly, Open, or Reluctant.

8. Interaction
Interaction works basically the same way as it does in the Core Rules, but I've outlined some changes below.

Expressing Goals and Offering Services
If the Company hasn't done so already, they must express their Primary Goal during the Interaction.
They may choose whether or not to pursue their Secondary Goals or offer their Services.
Players should take each Skill roll during the Interaction as a chance to roleplay not just the Skill but also how exactly they mention any Secondary Goals and Services that they choose to express.

Adjusting the Resistance Level
Remember that the Resistance and the Time Limit can change depending on what Goals and Services come up in the Council.
  • When the Company makes a request from their Secondary Goals, the LM might decide to raise the Resistance level, which lowers the Time Limit by 1 for each level it rises.
  • When the Company offers any Service, the LM might decide to lower the Resistance level, which raises the Time Limit by 1 for each level it lowers.
Skill Tests
The Core Rules give examples of five Skills that are useful in Councils: Enhearten, Insight, Persuade, Riddle, and Song (p. 107).
Below is a summary of how five more Skills might come into play.

AWE: Intimidate or impress the audience to advance your agenda.
"Strider seemed to be held in awe by most of the Bree-landers, and those that he stared at shut their mouths and drew away."

BATTLE: If the Council takes place just before or during a battle, you might use this Skill to raise the morale of a leader and their soldiers, or you might guide the leader on tactics and strategy. Alternatively, you might tell a story that relates a social situation with a tale of battle, or you might show an enemy audience that you have outmaneuvered them.
"But the Elvenking said: 'Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold. The dwarves cannot press us, unless we will, or do anything that we cannot mark. Let us hope still for something that will bring reconciliation. Our advantage in numbers will be enough, if in the end it must come to unhappy blows.'"

COURTESY: A respectful orator can express their wishes while still minding their manners. Player-heroes might also use this Skill to flatter the audience.
"'Who are you that sit in the plain as foes before defended walls?' This, of course, in the polite and rather old­-fashioned language of such occasions, meant simply: 'You have no business here. We are going on, so make way or we shall fight you!'"

HEALING: If a member of the Company's audience has a wound or illness to be treated, then this Skill can help a Player-hero to diagnose and aid the audience member.
"The wizard and the eagle-­lord appeared to know one another slightly, and even to be on friendly terms. As a matter of fact Gandalf, who had often been in the mountains, had once rendered a service to the eagles and healed their lord from an arrow­-wound."

LORE: Educated minds can recall prophecy or historical events that would shed better light on their goals or help them to recall important facts about the audience.
"Bilbo was not quite so unlearned in dragon-­lore as all that, and if Smaug hoped to get him to come nearer so easily he was disappointed."

Tip: Remember that Player-heroes can use Support during Councils. That's one more interesting choice they can consider.

9. Random Events
(Credit to Lucasse for making the original version of this table. I have modified it a bit to fit my taste.)

Between each Skill test of the Interaction step, roll for a Random Council Event -- news/messages, opposing counselors, etc.

Roll a Feat Die for Events (Make the roll Favoured if the audience has the Friendly Attitude. Make the roll Ill-Favoured if the audience has the Reluctant Attitude.)
  • Gandalf Rune - Fortune smiles: The council receives heartening tidings, a prophecy is recollected that backs the Company’s quest, or a traditional celebration happens to occur at the same time that lifts everyone’s spirits. Everyone regains 1 Hope, and a free success is gained towards matching the council’s Resistance.
  • 10 - Support from Unexpected Quarters: Someone important in the council vouches for the Company’s request, or some news changes things in favor of an agreement, or even the host recalls an argument in the Company’s favor. A free success is gained towards matching the council’s Resistance.
  • 9 - Extra Time: An opportunity for a display of skill; increase the Time Limit by 1.
  • 3-8 - Unexpected Resistance or Objection: Someone in the council is taking an antagonistic position, or some news or mishap harms the Company’s argument, or simply a strong counterargument comes up. The Time Limit is lowered by 1 unless a PC spends 1 Hope and is next to make an Interaction roll that directly addresses the event.
  • 2 - Temptation: A random hero is tempted to act upon their Shadow path in a way that would benefit the Company's success in this Council. If the hero chooses to do it, the Company gains an automatic Success toward matching the Resistance, but they also gain the appropriate amount of Shadow.
  • 1 - Fell Tidings: The council receives grim news, or a dark omen seems to condemn the Company’s quest. PCs gain the appropriate amount of Shadow points for the event if applicable (see the rules for Shadow in the book), and the Time Limit is lowered by 1 unless the heroes spend 1 Hope each.
  • Eye of Sauron - A hero causes a dangerous accident, or an unexpected threat/attack reinforces the risk of assisting the Company, or disagreements lead to a mood so heated that blades are drawn recklessly; a random Hero AND audience member are Wounded. The Council ends in Disaster unless each hero spends 1 Hope AND a hero successfully applies first aid to the injured audience member using Healing immediately. This roll counts against the Time Limit.
10. End of the Council
See the rulebook for these rules regarding if the heroes have success, success with woe, failure, or disaster.

Note: The following rules for Failure Results were in the Alpha but are no longer in the Core Rules. You might consider using them if you like them.
  • If the Company fails and the audience was Friendly: The Company is simply refused what they asked for. The Player-heroes are denied the help they requested, and are dismissed.
  • If the Company fails and the audience was Open: The Company has gained one or more new enemies. Their hostility doesn’t necessarily lead to an immediate action, nor must it be manifest, and may lead to an unexpected challenge to be faced another day.
  • If the Company fails and the audience was Reluctant: The Company is now seen as a threat by the folk encountered — the Player-heroes may end up being imprisoned, or even attacked.
~

Well, that's it!
 
hsi379
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri 10 Sep 2021, 19:24

Re: Councils - My House Rules

Tue 19 Oct 2021, 22:02


Here's my alternative:
  • The Time Limit is 6 for Heroes whose Primary Goal request is Reasonable (requiring 3 successes).
  • The Time Limit is 5 for Heroes whose Primary Goal request is Bold (requiring 6 successes).
  • The Time Limit is 4 for Heroes whose Primary Goal request is Outrageous (requiring 9 successes).
Kudos for this work! I agree Councils could use more levers/strategy, and this is great.

That said, you really need to do the math to see what these changes do. I'm pretty sure RAW councils math doesn't work very well. Part of the issue is extra successes on Tengwars which makes longer challenges easier at high skill (this house rule may fix that). The other is that d6 adds and subtractions for the entire challenge is really blunt and can effect the success dramatically.

Given a bunch of Council posts lately, I will dig up my math and create a post.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests