Niallism
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Sat 09 Oct 2021, 04:33

Point regarding 1e conversion to 2e is not valid at all. If you look at 1e eye awareness rules they are very similar and not scaling. We didn't used those we adopted AIME approach to TOR 1e. I hoped they'll revisit this more but seams not. So we'll house rule this as previously.
Are you saying that you didn’t use the 1E rules at all? Sure, then, that’s a much more obvious problem than the emergent organic limits on character power I was talking about.
 
gyrovague
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Sat 09 Oct 2021, 05:04

It’s just the complex interaction of all the various caps on character power. Shadow - and Scars, which require Advancement points to heal, thereby limiting Valor, Wisdom, and Combat Proficiency. Bouts of Madness. Revelation events. The danger of wielding famous weapons openly. The dangers of Magical Successes. The difficulties and challenges that the GM presents. And the story and narrative.
All of these are different in 2E.

Any PC’s story will end in death, Madness, or retirement, and I strongly suspect that if the OP’s party had started in 2E many of the characters would have ended in one of those ways already. And an entirely new dynamic, of choosing whether to take a Famous Weapon on an adventure, of avoiding magic, of hiding their power just as Gandalf and Aragorn did in the books, would have evolved as Eye default rating grew troublesome.

That’s why I think simple use of 1E characters in 2E becomes more problematic the longer they have been played. And the OP’s characters have been played for a long time.

I think assuming you can use an earlier character sheet in a new edition is not really precedented. Those characters need to be adapted/converted, but it’s very hard to do. Should they have some scars? How far down their shadow path should they be? There’s a lot more to think about than simple skill points and Endurance.
So, if I'm understanding this argument, it's that had these same characters been played from the start using 2E rules, they might not be at the same point in the game as they are after having been directly converted from 1e, and may even be dead/retired. And that therefore they don't form a good basis for how the new(ish) Eye of Mordor rules work. Is that correct?

If so, I don't find that to address the OP's criticism. It might possibly be* that a group of characters in 2e is less likely to reach Valour 4 and have a bunch of famous weapons, but the problem still exists that characters can progress that far, and that for those who do the Eye of Mordor rules will leave them perpetually above the threshold. So unless you are saying that in 2e nobody will get that far into the game, I don't see how the conversion from 1e is relevant.

And if the proposed solution is really "just don't bring that character you've been invested in every Wednesday night for the last 14 months, or at least leave behind that awesome sword for which you've finally unlocked the 3rd enchanted quality"....well, I just don't even know what to say to that. If that's your idea of an awesome gaming experience, we'll just have to agree to disagree. If that's intentional game design then the character sheet should have 4 ranks, not 6.

*although I doubt it. Overall 2e looks to be less harsh and unforgiving than 1e. I would expect player-heroes to die or be forced into retirement less frequently, not more.
 
Niallism
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Sat 09 Oct 2021, 05:39

About the character sheets going that high - very good point. If they go that high, the game should support it.

About the idea of what is fun in a game? I think that there is plenty of fun playing someone who is so powerful they have to decide which of their assets to utilize. I also think that ‘fun’ isn’t the only thing that’s good about RPGs. Or being ‘awesome’. I would enjoy playing in a group of Aragorns, and deciding together that only the one of us who has a Orcbane sword will wield it on this adventure to defeat The Great Orc. I would also enjoy the story of how my amazing elf fell to the Shadow and went into the West. Powerful characters are not the only enjoyable story.

I sympathize that the OP may have created a 1E-plus-houserules experience that they like, and a sudden change to 2E might be jarring. I think the only solution is more changes to their characters, playing 1E, or lots of house rules. 2E isn’t 1E. It is a different game, and any porting of a campaign has to accept that. That is the truth, no matter how anyone feels about it.

Simple backwards compatibility is not a feature list of TOR. And it seems the OP had changed the rules of 1E anyway. What they want may not be possible.
 
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eternalsage
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Sat 09 Oct 2021, 06:46

Ok, dude, seriously. I don't think anyone in this thread is talking about converting characters but you. The problem is that the RAW does not function properly at higher power levels. You can fix it or ignore it, but stop telling people they are playing the game wrong and stop inventing scenarios to try and invalidate people's points when you are in fact ignoring the actual problem.
“It is useless to meet revenge with revenge; it will heal nothing.” - Frodo Baggins, Return of the King
 
gyrovague
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Sat 09 Oct 2021, 07:11

I sympathize that the OP may have created a 1E-plus-houserules experience that they like, and a sudden change to 2E might be jarring. I think the only solution is more changes to their characters, playing 1E, or lots of house rules. 2E isn’t 1E. It is a different game, and any porting of a campaign has to accept that. That is the truth, no matter how anyone feels about it.

Simple backwards compatibility is not a feature list of TOR. And it seems the OP had changed the rules of 1E anyway. What they want may not be possible.
Again, I don't think that's really relevant to the actual critique of the rule. The problem with the rule has absolutely nothing to do with backwards compatibility; that just happens to be how the OP has bumped into the shortcoming of the rules so soon. If nobody converted any 1e characters, somebody else would still eventually start this same thread with characters leveled entirely in 2e.

The fact remains that if you have a largish gaming group, and all/most have Valour 4+ and/or Famous Weapons, you are going to be nearly continuously over the Eye Awareness Threshold. As I said upthread, I don't think lots of Revelation Episodes in itself is a bad thing, but it does completely undermine the drama/tension of the mechanic. If Gandalf is tagging along he may as well blast away; additional Eye Awareness will have no effect.

It's one thing to retire a character because they are getting so powerful it's not fun anymore, or to leave that ancient sword at home for roleplay reasons. That's all cool. But having that decision be driven by an awkwardly scaling Eye of Mordor mechanic seems sub-optimal. And I know this issue has been previously raised (and was raised in 1e, which had similar problems) so I really don't know what to think.
 
Drizzt
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Sat 09 Oct 2021, 07:50

About AIME I was talking only about Eye Awareness rule not about all rules. In AIME it scales always because you are roling always check after every increase of Hunt if you manage to beat it no Revelation and difficulty always increases. In Tor this was Wit check. Score was high because of reasons but also WITs is 4+ so you have a chance to roll it or fail it. Everyone was happy with such addition and we love this Eye awareness rules just we had to make it scalable and still fun with tension. Because othewise it autofails and everyone doesn't pay attention anymore it becomes useless. I hoped that authors will rethink this rule from 1e mechanic and make it scalable. Cause it's not that means we need to get back to our rule.
 
Niallism
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Sat 09 Oct 2021, 08:01

Ok, dude, seriously. I don't think anyone in this thread is talking about converting characters but you. The problem is that the RAW does not function properly at higher power levels. You can fix it or ignore it, but stop telling people they are playing the game wrong and stop inventing scenarios to try and invalidate people's points when you are in fact ignoring the actual problem.
The OP’s group are playing their powerful 1E characters. Different game, and I explained why. I’m not attacking the OP. I am addressing their issues.
Last edited by Niallism on Sat 09 Oct 2021, 08:07, edited 1 time in total.
 
gyrovague
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Sat 09 Oct 2021, 08:04

The OP’s group are playing their powerful 1E characters.
...and if you are playing equally powerful 2e characters the same problem exists.
 
Dunheved
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Sat 09 Oct 2021, 09:34

Mmm. I have been thinking about this as if it had to have the same moves as an actual Hunt. Something Asgo mentioned upthread (great word that!), that the minions of Sauron might visit a person who has helped the Company instead (A bit closer to the attack on the Pony by the nazgul), makes me suggest that I should be more flexible in what an episode is, and not just another attack or ambush.

So the revelation episode occurs off-stage, and if the PC return they will suffer Shadow gain as the relatively innocent suffer on their behalf - Scouring of the Shire, right there.

And as a further, separate, observation: maybe a famous (or, put another way, Notorious) Company should be triggering problems everywhere it goes. In Hollywood Western parlance, the posse will be called out as soon as anyone is recognised. The Outlaw Josey Wales triggered most of the problems for his group: the (Hollywood) James Gang ended up too infamous to be able to ride into many towns. Butch & Sundance emigrated to South America - and that didn' t work in the end I believe.
Boromir was ignored travelling North on his own. And Strider was well aware to remain incognito on his travels. Gandalf is careful to be discrete, even in the Shire. But together? Tough luck guys, those famous names really are "worth a thousand mail clad knights in armour of old"

So I suggest that if a Company or some of its members get too attractive to the attention of The Eye, then that Company should take measures to Conceal itself. Either by narration or by some sort of mechanic, the Company can impose a reduction in their Hunt score. However, that Concealment is lost if the Company is indiscrete. (a) leaving a Creature with a Hate score to get away (b) Royalty Revealed - a consequence of a Council perhaps? (c) using a famous weapon or heirloom or open use of magic (d) slaying or thwarting a major Adversary (e) robbing the stage out of Rio, or the bank at El Paso.
Once the Concealment is lost, the Company attracts all the attention it deserves, until it can get under cover and "disappear for a while".
Not sure it solves the problem, more about getting out of it when it arrives.
 
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Sat 09 Oct 2021, 11:09

Moderator Message: Please discuss the topic with respect and decency.
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