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Aiden Harrison
Posts: 133
Joined: Sun 18 Apr 2021, 09:49

Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Thu 07 Oct 2021, 16:54

There is a reason they didn't take Glorfindel and another elf lord with them on the quest to destroy the ring.

A Valour of 4 is pretty high - the idea that five players all have a Valour of 4 in the same party is unlikely, people will die or retire before then. (In my opinion).

If there is such a group running around Middle-Earth then they better have the blessings of a Wizard and be being very discreet, for the Eye is watching.

Of the Fellowship I think you could argue that only Aragorn had a Valour of 4 when they set off on the quest (Not counting Gandalf).

The Eye Awareness rules do make sense if you consider that the Fellowship had a starting awareness of 11 or so - 2 from Dunedain, 1 from Aragorn's high Valour, 2 for Anduril, 2 for Sting, 2 for Mithril Coat, 2 for the Ring itself*.

If you factor in that it was the One Ring it was probably higher than that, But Gandalf was with them so that likely cancels that.
 
Drizzt
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri 02 Jul 2021, 15:09

Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Thu 07 Oct 2021, 19:02

We're are always getting into this discussion about party is very strong etc... I'm questioning rules them selfs they brake on certain point and I don't agree that we should stop playing because of that. They should address such situation with auto revelation and how to handle that. Now I'm left to house rule this unfinished rule. I want more discussion on that part. Would be great if Francesco coul comment on this. What was the idea especially that this Eye awareness rules should be applied not at the begining, as written, but little bit later when players grow.
 
gyrovague
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Thu 07 Oct 2021, 19:38

I think one thing to bear in mind is that Revelation episodes don't have to be cataclysmic events. It's not literally Sauron seeing you. It's just a way to raise tensions and challenge powerful parties.

However, I will say that in the sidebar with example Revelations I'm not a huge fan of the ones that (arbitrarily) impose penalties. I think episodes should present new challenges, but good/creative play should be able to cancel those challenges. For example, #3 ("Don't Tempt Me") just imposes 3 points of Shadow(Greed) on one of the PCs. That feels sorta board-gamey to me, as if I drew a card or landed on a space that says "Take 3 Shadow!" I'd much prefer the LM present me with something terribly tempting, maybe that will make the rest of the adventure harder if I don't take it, but that still leaves me with the choice.
 
Asgo
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 12:18

Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Thu 07 Oct 2021, 19:57

Another interesting aspect of this rule, aside from absolute and per item values, is that it doesn't scale at all with player numbers.
Given that a notable part of the factors is per person that influences how fast a group has the chance to be revealed - even without going into extreme cases.

Sure, strictly speaking a larger group has a higher chance of being noticed than a smaller, but since all revelation episodes will be tailored by the LM to the group there is no mechanical reason that the player group size - a purely meta factor that has no in story reason - should influence when a group comes into contact with this rule - for good or bad. A small group that doesn't get a lot of a priori boni has to gather a lot of stuff to get into contact with this, which also not necessarily welcome given that it is a nice concept.
 
Dunheved
Posts: 494
Joined: Wed 11 Mar 2020, 02:07
Location: UK

Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Thu 07 Oct 2021, 23:10

A bit concerned that having a company with only one or two people at Valour = 4? (Aiden H earlier post).
In RAW there is the explicit expectation that after ten years or so, Players will reach 5+ in Valour AND Wisdom; and comparable levels in Combat Proficiencies. ( its on page 56 Further Adventures).


However, by the end of ten years, the adventures are going to come to the Company!

(Personally, I have issues with the amount of Adventure Points you will gain even in ten years, as you need 94 points to go from wisdom 1 to wisdom 6, then another 94 for valour, and maybe 76 to get a single weapon ability to level 6. Ignoring spending points to build up the Heir, that is.

Given that it is 3 points per session, and the given example on page 56 produces 3 sessions, then that is only 9 Adventure Points per Yule phase? In ten Yule times, That's 90 points.
I must have something glaringly wrong here surely? )
 
a2le
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri 03 Jul 2020, 19:11

Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Fri 08 Oct 2021, 12:02

A bit concerned that having a company with only one or two people at Valour = 4? (Aiden H earlier post).
In RAW there is the explicit expectation that after ten years or so, Players will reach 5+ in Valour AND Wisdom; and comparable levels in Combat Proficiencies. ( its on page 56 Further Adventures).


However, by the end of ten years, the adventures are going to come to the Company!

(Personally, I have issues with the amount of Adventure Points you will gain even in ten years, as you need 94 points to go from wisdom 1 to wisdom 6, then another 94 for valour, and maybe 76 to get a single weapon ability to level 6. Ignoring spending points to build up the Heir, that is.

Given that it is 3 points per session, and the given example on page 56 produces 3 sessions, then that is only 9 Adventure Points per Yule phase? In ten Yule times, That's 90 points.
I must have something glaringly wrong here surely? )
Well, I think that a company is supposed to embark on more than one adventure in a year, I guess 3 at least. Then 27 AP per Yule, and 270 after ten years. What do you think about it?
 
Themadviolinist
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat 10 Jul 2021, 16:01

Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Fri 08 Oct 2021, 14:29

I'm puzzled how to explain the Eye points resetting during each fellowship phase. I get that having an always increasing ratchet is undesirable, but I think I'd like a mechanism that decreased eye points, based on the conduct of the group, so that if they are intentionally staying low key, perhaps over time their eye points go below their starting point, or if they insist on doing flashy things, it keeps increasing.
 
Niallism
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 13:56

Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Fri 08 Oct 2021, 14:54

We're are always getting into this discussion about party is very strong etc... I'm questioning rules them selfs they brake on certain point and I don't agree that we should stop playing because of that. They should address such situation with auto revelation and how to handle that. Now I'm left to house rule this unfinished rule. I want more discussion on that part. Would be great if Francesco coul comment on this. What was the idea especially that this Eye awareness rules should be applied not at the begining, as written, but little bit later when players grow.
I think the big issue may be that you converted - or just started using - powerful 1E characters to 2E. If they had been playing in 2E, perhaps they would have already been ready to retire, or have retired. Or had too much Shadow and become NPCs or dead. There is a complicated web of soft limits on player power, and it's clear to me that 1E had higher limits than 2E.

For example, they might not have taken up famous weapons and armour - Aragorn didn't reforge Narsil and use it on all his adventures. If you'd been playing from the beginning with these rules, everything would have turned out differently. PCs might have gotten into the habit of usually leaving their famous weapons at home, for fear of attention. And that repeated Eye of Sauron attention that they would have been getting when their default Eye rating was 12-16, rather than the 17 now, would have created serious issues for them.

You have already converted characters from 1e to 2e - I think you have to accept that that won't work with the new rules, and you either have to houserule things or change how you've converted them.

I don't think your issue is a criticism of the new rules. It's just an artifact of converting a campaign without re-evaluating, well, everything. I think complaining about it is unfair. To be honest I'm sort of glad you can't just auto-convert characters and a campaign to the new rules without serious revision. What would be the point of a second edition that worked the same as the first?
 
Drizzt
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri 02 Jul 2021, 15:09

Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Fri 08 Oct 2021, 18:01

Point regarding 1e conversion to 2e is not valid at all. If you look at 1e eye awareness rules they are very similar and not scaling. We didn't used those we adopted AIME approach to TOR 1e. I hoped they'll revisit this more but seams not. So we'll house rule this as previously.
 
Mythicos
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 16 Jun 2020, 03:46

Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Fri 08 Oct 2021, 19:53

Point regarding 1e conversion to 2e is not valid at all. If you look at 1e eye awareness rules they are very similar and not scaling. We didn't used those we adopted AIME approach to TOR 1e. I hoped they'll revisit this more but seams not. So we'll house rule this as previously.
Point regarding 1e conversion to 2e is completely valid. You might not agree with it, which is fine, but what Niallism writes is very sensible, and I for one agree with him.

And I'm sorry to say this, but playing Wisdom/Valour 4 characters is like playing Epic characters in D&D. The rules tend to bend or even break at that point.

Saying this from 10 years of experience playing TOR 1st ed, the sweet spot for the game is from PCs with 1-2 Adventure phases under their belt up until they get to Valour/Wisdom at 4 ranks. At that point, one is probably better off making a transition towards their heir.

But YMMV, of course.

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