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eternalsage
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Fri 08 Oct 2021, 22:11

I see everyone's points here, and I think they play into each other. I think the design of the game was very much untested above Valour/Wisdom 4 for the reasons many have listed.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that the mechanics should stop working when you hit that point. Technically those stats go up to 6, after all! It's like excusing how poorly D&D 3.5 works after level 12 or so, because most people don't play past that level. It's easily fixed by house rules, but it shouldn't need to be.

It would be nice to get official feedback on this but in the long run I will probably just forget the RAW and wing it
“It is useless to meet revenge with revenge; it will heal nothing.” - Frodo Baggins, Return of the King
 
Dunheved
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Fri 08 Oct 2021, 22:13

Ah. So there are three Adventures per year, each of three sessions? That helps a lot. I didn't read it that way in the example given.
 
gyrovague
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Fri 08 Oct 2021, 22:39

I'm not sure I understand the argument for why it matters if the characters were converted from 1e or not. The 2e rules also support getting to high Valour/Wisdom, and the 2e rules also seem to assume/encourage a greater a likelihood of getting famous weapons, so certainly you will eventually get to the same point of auto-triggering revelations just by leaving home. Or waking up in the morning. (But if I'm missing something subtle...or even something not subtle...I'd love to have it explained.)

I'm not sure that in itself is a huge problem. It's not like revelations happen instantly, so the only real impact is that, well, everything is just more difficult than it otherwise would be. Which in some ways is good, because you want to keep the challenge up.

But, at the same time, if you are always above the threshold there's zero incentive to try to avoid adding to your Hunt score, and so the tension disappears. Plus it just feels wonky. And the same problem existed in 1e.

However, it's a hard problem to solve. I spent a bunch of time back then (I think Jacob and I fiddled with this together) trying to come up with some alternate rules that would work at both low level and high level, across all fellowship sizes, and we never came up with anything I would call "flawless". Especially with the constraint of keeping it in the spirit of TOR.
 
Asgo
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Fri 08 Oct 2021, 22:58

of course there are easy solutions, consider this:
Frodo on watch at night, shortly after the incident with the Crebain brooding over the low firelight.
Speaking to the flames "How will we get to Mordor if we draw so much attention already - we are never going to make it..."
Falling into silence, he slowly pulls out Sting staring at the fiery reflections off the blade. "Should I get rid of it? Would that help?"
Pulling his shirt aside he takes a long look at his mithirl shirt, hiding it fast when he hears a sound from the sleeping bodies - nothing.
Returning to his brooding, hoping for a solution - shortly before the end of his watch he rises abruptly: "I know what I have to do!"
... Walking over to the sleeping bodies, he pulls out Sting, keels beside Aragorn and slits his throat.
"This is for the better, and we still have Gandalf, who needs a ranger from the North..."
 
Dunheved
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Fri 08 Oct 2021, 23:11

Have to agree with Gyro's analysis of this issue. A simple mechanic does not seem to be able to satisfy both ends of the adventuring career.

I've spent hours trying to even get a good starting point for a rule or houserule, and gone round in circles. (Maybe I need to go round in Rings!)
 
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eternalsage
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Fri 08 Oct 2021, 23:56

I think having it reset completely after a revelation or simply restricting it to one revelation per adventure is a workable (but inelegant) solution. You could also have certain negative modifiers like traveling incognito and avoiding civilization (worked well enough for Turin lol). You might also formulate something of a moving boundary, in which the threshold gradually increases (just not as quickly as the players gain ways to hit it.)

I haven't looked at the rules for the eye in detail, my characters are not yet in a position to interact with them, but I'm sure there is a way to work something out
“It is useless to meet revenge with revenge; it will heal nothing.” - Frodo Baggins, Return of the King
 
Dunheved
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Location: UK

Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Sat 09 Oct 2021, 02:20

Given that high performing heroes AND noteworthy equipment are the main attraction for the Hunt, it might be closer to a rule if the mechanic is streamlined so that ONLY PC s with a Valour or Wisdom of 4+ count in determining the threshold. i.e. any Ranger or High Elf at level 3 or less is simply not important enough for a Creature of Shadow to get out of bed for, and scores zero for the Hunt. Clearly I am attempting to remove the Eye's interest in minor league players with this interpretation. However, a recognisable item or weapon will still be scored for the Hunt Total , no matter who carries the item.


Items with magical qualities count as +1 to the Hunt score per quality.
PC s at level 4 score as per the published rule. e.g. a Ranger with Wisdom 4 is 2 Hunt points
PC s at level 5 are an additional +1 to their level 4 rating
PC s at level 6 are an additional +2 to their level 4 rating

(Might still need some more thought. )
Last edited by Dunheved on Wed 13 Oct 2021, 10:55, edited 1 time in total.
 
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eternalsage
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Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Sat 09 Oct 2021, 02:28

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.
“It is useless to meet revenge with revenge; it will heal nothing.” - Frodo Baggins, Return of the King
 
Asgo
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 12:18

Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Sat 09 Oct 2021, 02:54

still not really convinced of the the famous weapons in this context, narratively speaking independent from the calculation.
Oh sure, the way the game works they are an important char/party progress metric, there is no denying that, but it feels off just having them with you will count.
I mean this is not the kind of RPG with huge weapons in the metric ton range and looking at examples of famous weapons and items they don't appear too different from normal weapons from a casual glance.
Narratively speaking there would probably be two ways how they better could contribute to the eyes awareness:
- the common knowledge that you gained them, independent from current gear simply knowledge about the parties history, i.e., making the story how you gained them more relevant than current direct observation.
- if you go the direct observation route, you could attribute them to the "during" adventure count and not to the start value, if/when they come visibly in use ( weapons drawn in combat, a hidden mithril shirt that has to take a blow that should have killed a hobbit, some inexplicable effect triggered by an item ...)

The first could actually increase the total count of items that would have to be included into the calculation, so there may be a need to choose a lower modifier. The second one could go with a higher value as not all available items might come into play - you would have to decide how independent different revelation episodes inside one adventure phase should be, meaning if you can hide you items again until next use and reset that part of the count.

Both offer some interesting choices, the first one more on the RP side, deciding how flamboyant you celebrate your victories and treasures, the LM might allow to discount certain item from the "known" tally if he decides the party played it smart and low-key enough that no one really knows what you acquired.
The second is more tactical, the question "of how all in do I go with item use to solve the situation", basically by making stealth decisions not as pure static modifiers but in terms of what you do with the items you have.
 
Niallism
Posts: 116
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 13:56

Re: The Eye of Mordor same issues as in Alpha

Sat 09 Oct 2021, 04:29

I'm not sure I understand the argument for why it matters if the characters were converted from 1e or not. The 2e rules also support getting to high Valour/Wisdom, and the 2e rules also seem to assume/encourage a greater a likelihood of getting famous weapons, so certainly you will eventually get to the same point of auto-triggering revelations just by leaving home. Or waking up in the morning. (But if I'm missing something subtle...or even something not subtle...I'd love to have it explained.)

I'm not sure that in itself is a huge problem. It's not like revelations happen instantly, so the only real impact is that, well, everything is just more difficult than it otherwise would be. Which in some ways is good, because you want to keep the challenge up.

But, at the same time, if you are always above the threshold there's zero incentive to try to avoid adding to your Hunt score, and so the tension disappears. Plus it just feels wonky. And the same problem existed in 1e.

However, it's a hard problem to solve. I spent a bunch of time back then (I think Jacob and I fiddled with this together) trying to come up with some alternate rules that would work at both low level and high level, across all fellowship sizes, and we never came up with anything I would call "flawless". Especially with the constraint of keeping it in the spirit of TOR.
It’s just the complex interaction of all the various caps on character power. Shadow - and Scars, which require Advancement points to heal, thereby limiting Valor, Wisdom, and Combat Proficiency. Bouts of Madness. Revelation events. The danger of wielding famous weapons openly. The dangers of Magical Successes. The difficulties and challenges that the GM presents. And the story and narrative.
All of these are different in 2E.

Any PC’s story will end in death, Madness, or retirement, and I strongly suspect that if the OP’s party had started in 2E many of the characters would have ended in one of those ways already. And an entirely new dynamic, of choosing whether to take a Famous Weapon on an adventure, of avoiding magic, of hiding their power just as Gandalf and Aragorn did in the books, would have evolved as Eye default rating grew troublesome.

That’s why I think simple use of 1E characters in 2E becomes more problematic the longer they have been played. And the OP’s characters have been played for a long time.

I think assuming you can use an earlier character sheet in a new edition is not really precedented. Those characters need to be adapted/converted, but it’s very hard to do. Should they have some scars? How far down their shadow path should they be? There’s a lot more to think about than simple skill points and Endurance.

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