MDuckworth83
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Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 01:28

Most importantly : Apologies for any perception of any snarkiness in any of my earlier posts - that is not my intent at all.

1. For those players who are looking at this game for the first time, it may not be apparent that TOR1e already had a strong element of Before-the-Roll Bonus dice in addition to the Hope mechanic. Three different skills could be used to gain bonus dice to add to Journeys; Encounters (Councils if you like); and in Combat. This mechanic was called Preliminary Rolls. Players had to guess when it might be a good time to throw that extra in. (A gamble, but not at the additional expense of the Hope pool.)

In essence, the desire to streamline the mechanics in TOR2e has absorbed both 'Preliminary Rolls' and 'Old' Hope. This reduces player options (and hence variety) going from TOR1e to TOR2e. Instead of two distinct actions (i.e. one BEFORE a Roll and the other AFTER a Roll), there is now one replacement action, Spending "New Hope".

2. Is it fair to say that Magical Success in TOR2e means that certain Virtues and the Elf Cultural Virtue remove Dramatic Tension: and removes the Best thing about using Hope in these cases? I have to say that a 100% success rate (at least while you have any hope points left) limits Dramatic Tension for me." I don't want to Fail. Spend Hope on that one, no one else need try to open the door. "
Having play tested an elf now, I definitely see the threat here. Basically, you can take a skill that you have no proficiency in, in an attribute that is your weakest (typically heart for elves) - and spend a hope and auto succeed. I think in any other culture, this would upset me as feeling too OP. However, Tolkien's Eldar "should" feel OP, and this is probably a nice way to make them feel powerful and inherently magical while still balanced...so I'm ok with it. I'd have been dissapointed if elves "didn't" stand out.
 
gyrovague
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Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 01:45

I'll end with a question. I gather that the way hope worked in 1E is that, if you'd failed a roll, you could spend a point of hope to add the relevant attribute to your roll, if it would convert failure to success. IF I've got that right, that would seem to make hope more useful in a situation where the character already has a high attribute score; a hobbit's strength would likely be useful for hope less often than that of a dwarf. I think I see hope (estel) as not rewarding the powerful because of their power, which that mechanic would seem to have done. While 2E's mechanic does leave the possibility that a hope spend will be for naught, it also seems to make the arrival of "hope unlooked-for" something that is more prevalent.
The thing to remember about 1e is that your attribute otherwise made no contribution to your success or failure. So it's not like people with high Wits were already more likely to succeed at Wits skills; they weren't. The Hope mechanic was the only place that attributes factored into success.
 
Themadviolinist
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Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 01:47

Thank you for taking time to summarize the 1E preliminary roll concept. Would a reasonable house rule be that if you wanted to prepare the way for a tough roll and could narratively justify it, you could roll a preparatory skill roll, which if you succeeded would make the second roll favored without the use of hope? Would that bring the bits of 1E into a 2E context successfully? IF circumstance permits in my next session, I might playtest this to see if it feels right.
 
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aramis
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Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 03:39

The whole “it was automatic success!” argument is problematic, failures still happened, but less frequently in areas where the character really should be an expert, and as a function of their own decision to spend Hope. It was a choice, trading instant gratification for long-term consequences. I thought it was a good safety net that made clever use of Attributes, that was useful when trying to correct a failure on your Favoured areas, but wasn’t deterministic of your overall success/failure rate.

But some people thought Attributes were useless and never got featured. Presumably they are happy campers now that all TNs are tied to the relevant Attribute.

The inclusion does make it easier to sell to the D&D crowd,,,

The thing is, the hope replenishment is about triple what it was in 1E¹ without songs². The "only spend hope if you know it will matter" of 1E is a great bit of making the hope stretch...
In 2E, it being as powerful per point would probably be too much. but a die or two after rolling would, to me, feel about right.

The spend-before systems I've run don't tie it to the same resource that is used to represent sanity.... for, with how hope works in both editions, when your hope gets too low you can have a psychotic break. (Not as easily in 2E, but still.
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¹: 1E: Fellowship pool just a hair over 1 per player, plus 1 for FF unharmed. Hobbits pushing that up. 2E, it's Breelanders instead of hobbits (not an improvement, IMO), and you get Heart per Fellowship Phase.
²: As for songs... each song was good for 1 fellowship point if 1 SL per member of the fellowship per Adventuring Phase, at least if song was shared in the party, provided when used, someone wasn't at full hope.
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Dorjcal
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Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 11:11


The spend-before systems I've run don't tie it to the same resource that is used to represent sanity.... for, with how hope works in both editions, when your hope gets too low you can have a psychotic break. (Not as easily in 2E, but still.
There is no psychotic breakdown when you reach hope = 0 in 2E. Only when Shadow = Max Hope.
As long as you keep your shadow in check it is not a problem to run out of hope
 
baldrick0712
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Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 15:55

There is no psychotic breakdown when you reach hope = 0 in 2E. Only when Shadow = Max Hope.
As long as you keep your shadow in check it is not a problem to run out of hope
The chance of a Bout of Madness being triggered if you rolled a Sauron on ANY roll made zero Hope significantly worse in 1e. [EDIT] reread the 1e rules and it was for being Miserable, not for just being on 0 Hope. That said, the Miserable condition in 2e is virtually a non-issue. Players should no longer worry about becoming Miserable.
 
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Harlath
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Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 22:35

The thing is, the hope replenishment is about triple what it was in 1E¹ without songs². The "only spend hope if you know it will matter" of 1E is a great bit of making the hope stretch...
In 2E, it being as powerful per point would probably be too much. but a die or two after rolling would, to me, feel about right.

The spend-before systems I've run don't tie it to the same resource that is used to represent sanity.... for, with how hope works in both editions, when your hope gets too low you can have a psychotic break. (Not as easily in 2E, but still.
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¹: 1E: Fellowship pool just a hair over 1 per player, plus 1 for FF unharmed. Hobbits pushing that up. 2E, it's Breelanders instead of hobbits (not an improvement, IMO), and you get Heart per Fellowship Phase.
²: As for songs... each song was good for 1 fellowship point if 1 SL per member of the fellowship per Adventuring Phase, at least if song was shared in the party, provided when used, someone wasn't at full hope.
I got to pretty different relative hope recovery paces, only marginally higher in 2e than 1e. Pasting an old post below.

I get to triple in 2e v 1e before putting the two on a like for like basis, as 2e's fellowship pool only refreshes per fellowship phase in the Alpha. Once you adjust for this 2e's hope recovery is c20% higher. However, it looks like this may well change with the next 2e revision potentially moving to more frequent fellowship pool refreshes.

Naturally subject to changes in the assumptions below, and your point on Songs in 1e is worth bearing in mind too. :)

"Cross-posting some calculations I did on 1e v 2e hope recovery in another thread here, prompted by some helpful points from @gyrovague. :)

1e - 1 hope recovered (fellowship pool), +1 if fellowship focus not injured = 2 hope recovered per session, assuming focus not wounded.
2e - 1 hope recovered (fellowship pool) +0.5 (Patron's fellowship bonus, assumes 4 members of fellowship) + 4.67 (Heart rating of hope recovered per fellowship phase, characters have 14 stat points/3) = 6.167, however, this is per adventuring phase (the frequency with which the fellowship pool now refreshes) so we divide by 2.5 (as adventuring phase assumed to last 2-3 sessions according to p2 of the Alpha rules) = 2.468 hope recovered per session.

23% higher in 2e, assuming no hope gained from journeys and that adventuring phase lasts 2.5 sessions. And that 1e fellowship focus is never wounded. A material gap, but not as large as I'd have guessed. Obviously shifts further in 2e's favour if adventuring phases only take two sessions, and can slightly increase further due to hope from journeys, or if the Strengthen Fellowship undertaking is used. Thanks for prompting me to do the very thing we were talking about - look at the numbers! :)

10% higher if you're only Hope 4."
 
Dunheved
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Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 23:28

Thanks to Harlath for those more recent calculations: it gives me more to hang my impressions on.
Even before the Alpha came out, there was strong interest in the changing Hope dynamic when it was leaked in advance. (no snarky intended btw! because there is often nothing wrong with some early information to consider.) Most considered views said 'wait and see the whole thing, now we can predict what to look out for'.

So the numbers offered by Harlath reveal that Hope doesn't refresh as much as looking at the new Refresh rate in isolation might suggest . They refresh slower than that.
So if you feel that the rate of Hope consumption is faster than before, you are going to play in a more conservative manner because you understand that it is becoming IN REALITY more scarce. (Just as if your pay rise is 10%, but your bills go up by 40%. You have to be more thrifty to avoid bankruptcy.)

And if Harlath's figures reflect the effects of the Alpha rules closely enough, then any WASTE of Hope points due to this Alpha mechanic is going mitigate any enjoyment of a faster pace.
 
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Michele
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Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 23:35

1e - 1 hope recovered (fellowship pool), +1 if fellowship focus not injured = 2 hope recovered per session, assuming focus not wounded.
2e - 1 hope recovered (fellowship pool) +0.5 (Patron's fellowship bonus, assumes 4 members of fellowship) + 4.67 (Heart rating of hope recovered per fellowship phase, characters have 14 stat points/3) = 6.167, however, this is per adventuring phase (the frequency with which the fellowship pool now refreshes) so we divide by 2.5 (as adventuring phase assumed to last 2-3 sessions according to p2 of the Alpha rules) = 2.468 hope recovered per session.

23% higher in 2e, assuming no hope gained from journeys and that adventuring phase lasts 2.5 sessions. And that 1e fellowship focus is never wounded. A material gap, but not as large as I'd have guessed. Obviously shifts further in 2e's favour if adventuring phases only take two sessions, and can slightly increase further due to hope from journeys, or if the Strengthen Fellowship undertaking is used. Thanks for prompting me to do the very thing we were talking about - look at the numbers! :)

10% higher if you're only Hope 4."

You nailed the correct numbers. And if we assume that the Fellowship pool is recovered once per session (instead of once per Adventuring Phase, as speculated by Francesco), the Hope recovered per session increases to 3.368 (68% higher than in 1e). I'm not factoring in the presence of a Man of Bree, a Hobbit with the Virtue Three Is Company, or the Strengthen Fellowship undertaking.
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