Mythicos
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 16 Jun 2020, 03:46

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 00:47


Beginner adventurers might end spending up a bit more Hope at the beginning, and rely more on their experience on their expertise.

Which is/was also true of 1st edition. Beginning characters had a very hard time trying to succeed in skill tests, even if the TN was lower on average than for 2nd edition.
 
Dunheved
Posts: 494
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Location: UK

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 03:52

Agree totally that newbies will spend Hope until they pick up experience, and of course that description fits both TOR1e and 2e. But that is not the point of the OP - that is a point made in the other thread. This thread is not so much about the mechanics, its about the enjoyment of Alpha 2e Hope compared to 1e Hope.

So the OP describes the best thing of the new Hope style is the increase in Dramatic Tension (because players are risking a Do-or-Die roll).
However, if that is the BEST thing about the change, I cannot see it as any sort of NET improvement.

Yes, in some cases, the Players will only achieve a Roll because they spent Hope and gained d6. Those are the only Rolls that satisfy the Dramatic Tension of spending Hope, because without the extra d6 the roll fails. It can even be a let down when you instead roll a Gandalf. Or simply don't need the extra d6 as you overscore.
However, when those attempts at a Roll fail, I find there is a negative emotional impact. After all, your hero has just tried to exert their best, superhuman (or super elf, dwarf hobbit) effort to achieve an important* challenge by using part of the narrow reserve (Hope) they have. And if it is a "Have to Succeed" Roll, then how Heroic does the player feel when it's all in the dice and it then fails?

With the 1e version of Hope: surely it is transparent that you still have "Dramatic Tension" with the original dice roll? But if that Roll fails, then you have a chance to carry out a Heroic action because you can choose to apply a personal capability by Spending Hope. This is a different sort of emotional reward: gained because you have heroically expended your Hope resource to achieve what the dice said was impossible.
But the Dramatic Tension can still appear because you may NOT be able to bridge the gap with the power of your Hope (your Attribute is just not enough). Now you have to face the consequences of Irredeemable Failure (far more dramatic if you ask me). Thank the Valar that you have not wasted your Hope resource in a (failed) gamble - and your PC can use this resource to face the negative consequences of Irredeemable Failure. Frankly, for me this is more dramatic, and gives me more options and variety.

So if the OP is right that this is the best thing about New Hope, then giving up the flexibility of Old Hope it is too expensive a price to pay for me! If anything the mechanic is on a par to a decision about choosing a stance: and the similarity of mechanic makes the game more homogenised, and .... bland.

* the OP quotes a " Have to Succeed" roll
 
MDuckworth83
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue 06 Jul 2021, 03:32

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 04:36

Agree totally that newbies will spend Hope until they pick up experience, and of course that description fits both TOR1e and 2e. But that is not the point of the OP - that is a point made in the other thread. This thread is not so much about the mechanics, its about the enjoyment of Alpha 2e Hope compared to 1e Hope.

So the OP describes the best thing of the new Hope style is the increase in Dramatic Tension (because players are risking a Do-or-Die roll).
However, if that is the BEST thing about the change, I cannot see it as any sort of NET improvement.

Yes, in some cases, the Players will only achieve a Roll because they spent Hope and gained d6. Those are the only Rolls that satisfy the Dramatic Tension of spending Hope, because without the extra d6 the roll fails. It can even be a let down when you instead roll a Gandalf. Or simply don't need the extra d6 as you overscore.
However, when those attempts at a Roll fail, I find there is a negative emotional impact. After all, your hero has just tried to exert their best, superhuman (or super elf, dwarf hobbit) effort to achieve an important* challenge by using part of the narrow reserve (Hope) they have. And if it is a "Have to Succeed" Roll, then how Heroic does the player feel when it's all in the dice and it then fails?

With the 1e version of Hope: surely it is transparent that you still have "Dramatic Tension" with the original dice roll? But if that Roll fails, then you have a chance to carry out a Heroic action because you can choose to apply a personal capability by Spending Hope. This is a different sort of emotional reward: gained because you have heroically expended your Hope resource to achieve what the dice said was impossible.
But the Dramatic Tension can still appear because you may NOT be able to bridge the gap with the power of your Hope (your Attribute is just not enough). Now you have to face the consequences of Irredeemable Failure (far more dramatic if you ask me). Thank the Valar that you have not wasted your Hope resource in a (failed) gamble - and your PC can use this resource to face the negative consequences of Irredeemable Failure. Frankly, for me this is more dramatic, and gives me more options and variety.

So if the OP is right that this is the best thing about New Hope, then giving up the flexibility of Old Hope it is too expensive a price to pay for me! If anything the mechanic is on a par to a decision about choosing a stance: and the similarity of mechanic makes the game more homogenised, and .... bland.

* the OP quotes a " Have to Succeed" roll
Two points:
1. The new hope system is usually going to be +2d, not +1d. I've only playtested the mechanics at my own table on a 1e adventure and I'm already allergic to the idea of ever spending hope where I'm not inspired by a distinctive feature.... atleast not unless I'm desperate. +2d is a significant boost - and honestly probably more powerful in absolute value than 1e hope.

2. The two extra chances at Tengwars are significant too. 2e seems really driven by the added successes.. and statistically you should see an extra one of these every 3rd inspired hope expenditure in addition to a significant numerical bonus.
 
RichKarp
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 19:37

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 05:03

The emotional impacts of the Hope economy probably aren’t the most dependable metrics to base an assessment, though they obviously matter. It may be too subjective to describe Hope as “more fun” or “less precious,” but it really does seem to come down to player’s own tastes.

While satisfying everyone here seems basically impossible given the rifts, I do think 2e would benefit from some thoughtful changes about how/when Hope can be spent and its impacts. For example the game already incentives the player to spend Hope when Inspired; that could be made mandatory and the bonus increased from 2d to 3d. Helping mechanics could be altered such that Hope is gained, not lost when an ally intercedes. And Hope could apply to non-rolls to achieve narrative impacts with mechanical consequences (the sun rises, and the Orcs are now all at -1d).

I really do “Hope” that this mechanic is receiving additional scrutiny, because it’s a defining and unique part of TOR which really sets it apart and ties the game to the source material.
 
Dorjcal
Topic Author
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun 11 Jul 2021, 10:22

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 09:52

Yes, in some cases, the Players will only achieve a Roll because they spent Hope and gained d6. Those are the only Rolls that satisfy the Dramatic Tension of spending Hope, because without the extra d6 the roll fails. It can even be a let down when you instead roll a Gandalf. Or simply don't need the extra d6 as you overscore.
However, when those attempts at a Roll fail, I find there is a negative emotional impact. After all, your hero has just tried to exert their best, superhuman (or super elf, dwarf hobbit) effort to achieve an important* challenge by using part of the narrow reserve (Hope) they have. And if it is a "Have to Succeed" Roll, then how Heroic does the player feel when it's all in the dice and it then fails?

That´s the point. Are your character really trying to push themselves when they "magically know" they can succeed, or when they have to? Failing even when giving your best is part of life and character will have to deal with it.

But the Dramatic Tension can still appear because you may NOT be able to bridge the gap with the power of your Hope (your Attribute is just not enough). Now you have to face the consequences of Irredeemable Failure (far more dramatic if you ask me). Thank the Valar that you have not wasted your Hope resource in a (failed) gamble - and your PC can use this resource to face the negative consequences of Irredeemable Failure. Frankly, for me this is more dramatic, and gives me more options and variety.

I am sorry but I cannot absolutely see how it gives more options and variety. Spending only when you need it is a very unimaginative thing to do, and to me..

makes the game more homogenised, and .... bland.
 
gyrovague
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 16:37

That´s the point. Are your character really trying to push themselves when they "magically know" they can succeed, or when they have to? Failing even when giving your best is part of life and character will have to deal with it.

It depends on whether you see "spending Hope" as the character deciding to try extra hard, or if it's the player deciding that this is where they want to put their finger on the scale of Fate.
 
gyrovague
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 19:03

Also, it seems to me that some of the posts are starting to get a little heated and snarky, and we are seeing attacks on each other's playstyle. I'm sorry if I have written anything that has instigated that. It's certainly not necessary. And I'd like to stay away from it, because I tend to escalate and I want to be a better person than that.

We clearly have very different opinions about game mechanics, and playstyle, and thematics, and even interpretation of Tolkien. I think it's interesting (and sometimes surprising) to learn how other people's base assumptions can be so different from my own. Sometimes I say, "What? This thing that I've been assuming is universal actually isn't?"
 
Themadviolinist
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat 10 Jul 2021, 16:01

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 20:45

Hope as pre or post die roll phenomenon reflects a debate in game design for many games with die roll mitigation mechanics. Someone mentioned hero points from the Bond RPG, which is, I think, where I first encountered a mechanic of this sort, something I always incorporated in the home brew games I ran in various systems after that, as I saw the utility of making the heroes, well, heroic.
Before TOR, the most recent games I've played with such a mechanic were Fate Core and Cortex Prime. These embody the spend-after and spend-before sides respectively. My own taste inclines to the spend-before as a GM, because it was easier for me and my players to narrate how one might rig the game beforehand, than how one justified changing the result afterwards. I've enjoyed this conversation, because it's asking me to examine my assumptions, and what I come to is that it's a matter of genre.
For me, the spend-after is absolutely appropriate for pulp adventures with larger than life heroes who always seem to have a way out. The dramatic tension (to return to the topic of the OP) is, "How is the hero going to get out of this one?" You expect a certain quality of over-the-top-ness and it doesn't break the immersion, because you've already signed up for BAtman's utility belt, or Sherlock Holmes' knowledge of obscure Indian religious practices, or the like.
For me, Middle EArth is not that sort of world. The greatness of an Aragorn is not do to something he pulls out of his bag of tricks, it's a quality of person, the embodiment of kingly nature according to the conventions of the world. Frodo and Sam's heroism is of an altogether different sort, though it is also derived from their quality, as Sam would call it; Frodo's humility and willingness to give everything, and SAm's unshakable loyalty.
I think tying this to the spend-before mechanic works in the dramatic universe of TOR. I also think that's an entirely subjective judgment, and I respect those who've come to the oposite conclusion.
I'll end with a question. I gather that the way hope worked in 1E is that, if you'd failed a roll, you could spend a point of hope to add the relevant attribute to your roll, if it would convert failure to success. IF I've got that right, that would seem to make hope more useful in a situation where the character already has a high attribute score; a hobbit's strength would likely be useful for hope less often than that of a dwarf. I think I see hope (estel) as not rewarding the powerful because of their power, which that mechanic would seem to have done. While 2E's mechanic does leave the possibility that a hope spend will be for naught, it also seems to make the arrival of "hope unlooked-for" something that is more prevalent.
 
Mythicos
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 16 Jun 2020, 03:46

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Sun 25 Jul 2021, 23:17


I'll end with a question. I gather that the way hope worked in 1E is that, if you'd failed a roll, you could spend a point of hope to add the relevant attribute to your roll, if it would convert failure to success. IF I've got that right [...]

You are.

The TL;DR is:

When you make a Test roll and fail, you can add the attribute linked with the skill to the result (so you add Heart for a Travel roll, for example). if the skill was Favoured, you added the Favoured attribute (the Favoured attribute notion doesn't exist in 2nd; it was 1-3 points higher than the "regular" attribute).

So depending on the attribute and whether or not the skill was favoured, you could end up adding between +2 (lower unfavoured attribute) and +10 (higher favoured attribute) with a point of Hope.

[...] that would seem to make hope more useful in a situation where the character already has a high attribute score; a hobbit's strength would likely be useful for hope less often than that of a dwarf. I think I see hope (estel) as not rewarding the powerful because of their power, which that mechanic would seem to have done. While 2E's mechanic does leave the possibility that a hope spend will be for naught, it also seems to make the arrival of "hope unlooked-for" something that is more prevalent.

I'm agreeing with you here.

But I'll see how it turns out after a couple sessions of play.
Last edited by Mythicos on Mon 26 Jul 2021, 01:47, edited 1 time in total.
 
Dunheved
Posts: 494
Joined: Wed 11 Mar 2020, 02:07
Location: UK

Re: The best thing of NOT spending Hope AFTER rolling

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 00:46

Most importantly : Apologies for any perception of any snarkiness in any of my earlier posts - that is not my intent at all.

1. For those players who are looking at this game for the first time, it may not be apparent that TOR1e already had a strong element of Before-the-Roll Bonus dice in addition to the Hope mechanic. Three different skills could be used to gain bonus dice to add to Journeys; Encounters (Councils if you like); and in Combat. This mechanic was called Preliminary Rolls. Players had to guess when it might be a good time to throw that extra in. (A gamble, but not at the additional expense of the Hope pool.)

In essence, the desire to streamline the mechanics in TOR2e has absorbed both 'Preliminary Rolls' and 'Old' Hope. This reduces player options (and hence variety) going from TOR1e to TOR2e. Instead of two distinct actions (i.e. one BEFORE a Roll and the other AFTER a Roll), there is now one replacement action, Spending "New Hope".

2. Is it fair to say that Magical Success in TOR2e means that certain Virtues and the Elf Cultural Virtue remove Dramatic Tension: and removes the Best thing about using Hope in these cases? I have to say that a 100% success rate (at least while you have any hope points left) limits Dramatic Tension for me." I don't want to Fail. Spend Hope on that one, no one else need try to open the door. "

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