Dorjcal
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun 11 Jul 2021, 10:22

Re: A pattern in criticism?

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 15:23


Two things:

1) Those bonus dice are yours only; you can't give them to another player like you could in 1st edition;

Nowhere it is written that battle roll gives extra dice only to you.

From RAW:
canny combatants try to exploit the battlefield to their advantage, for example finding a convenient spot to cover their backs, reaching a vantage position to pepper the enemy with arrows, or kicking a fire to raise a cloud of sparks at the right moment. If a Player­hero is trying to remove a complication or to gain an advantage, the Loremaster may allow them to make a roll of BATTLE, as a main or secondary action (based on the current circumstances). The severity of a complication is reduced by one ‘tier’ on a success, plus another if the roll produced one or more icons. Conversely, an advantage is bumped up a ‘tier’ on each success.

For example, using a battle roll to push an enemy in an unfavorable position, might result in giving +1 or more die to every other companion attacking the same enemy.

2) The "Roll battle" to gain bonus dice ("Complications and Advantages" section, pp. 101-102) might be as a secondary action, depending on the current situation (i.e. LM's judgement). It also might use a main action, thus stopping you from attacking in the same round.
Which is still better than no roll at all like in 1E.
 
Mythicos
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 16 Jun 2020, 03:46

Re: A pattern in criticism?

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 16:51


Two things:

1) Those bonus dice are yours only; you can't give them to another player like you could in 1st edition;

Nowhere it is written that battle roll gives extra dice only to you.

From RAW:
canny combatants try to exploit the battlefield to their advantage, for example finding a convenient spot to cover their backs, reaching a vantage position to pepper the enemy with arrows, or kicking a fire to raise a cloud of sparks at the right moment. If a Player­hero is trying to remove a complication or to gain an advantage, the Loremaster may allow them to make a roll of BATTLE, as a main or secondary action (based on the current circumstances). The severity of a complication is reduced by one ‘tier’ on a success, plus another if the roll produced one or more icons. Conversely, an advantage is bumped up a ‘tier’ on each success.


And nowhere is it written that it doesn't give you 5 XPs when you make a Battle roll. Yet I'm pretty sure you don't.

Sarcastic counterpoint aside, giving one's dice to another player's PC is enough of a special thing that were it allowed by the rules, I'm pretty sure it would be explicitely spelled out.

[/quote]
 
Dorjcal
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun 11 Jul 2021, 10:22

Re: A pattern in criticism?

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 17:06


Sarcastic counterpoint aside, giving one's dice to another player's PC is enough of a special thing that were it allowed by the rules, I'm pretty sure it would be explicitely spelled out.
If you check advantages table on page 102, it states that everyone that is attacking a character in those condition get the advantage. So in a sense it is explicitely spelled out
 
Davi
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon 15 Feb 2021, 04:16

Re: A pattern in criticism?

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 17:21

I think that advantages disadvantages have been kept quite open for the Loremaster to play with the mechanics as they see fit.

So, if you want to create advantage for others, for everyone, until combat ends or until next turn, I think it is all on the table.

I would say that even Battle is one of the possible skills, a Hobbit with high stealth could use his stealth to sneak, and gain an advantageous position. As any RPG the limit of what clthe character is doing is the players imagination.
 
Asgo
Posts: 143
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 12:18

Re: A pattern in criticism?

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 17:28

since the the complications describe an abstracted battlefield scenario and the BATTLE roll an abstracted way of changing those conditions, the fun part is that a successful BATTLE roll might not just affect the whole or parts of your group, it also may result in persistent boni (or persistently less mali) for the rest of the fight.
Of course it depends on if the player can sell the LM on the action his char wants to perform and its potential influence on the battlefield.
 
Mythicos
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 16 Jun 2020, 03:46

Re: A pattern in criticism?

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 17:59


Sarcastic counterpoint aside, giving one's dice to another player's PC is enough of a special thing that were it allowed by the rules, I'm pretty sure it would be explicitely spelled out.
If you check advantages table on page 102, it states that everyone that is attacking a character in those condition get the advantage. So in a sense it is explicitely spelled out

I did read it, and twice since you quoted it.

The absence of "All" and the presence of the word "may" is kinda key here.

It's written...:


[...] Player-Heroes may enjoy from the adverse effects of a single complication at a time [...]

... and not:


[...] All Player-Heroes will enjoy from the adverse effects of a single complication at a time [...]
(emphasis mine)

So... agree to disagree on the interpretation?
 
Dorjcal
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun 11 Jul 2021, 10:22

Re: A pattern in criticism?

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 19:02


Sarcastic counterpoint aside, giving one's dice to another player's PC is enough of a special thing that were it allowed by the rules, I'm pretty sure it would be explicitely spelled out.
If you check advantages table on page 102, it states that everyone that is attacking a character in those condition get the advantage. So in a sense it is explicitely spelled out

I did read it, and twice since you quoted it.

The absence of "All" and the presence of the word "may" is kinda key here.

It's written...:


[...] Player-Heroes may enjoy from the adverse effects of a single complication at a time [...]

... and not:


[...] All Player-Heroes will enjoy from the adverse effects of a single complication at a time [...]
(emphasis mine)

So... agree to disagree on the interpretation?
It depends from the condition.
If the enemy is blinded most likely all the player heroes will get the advantage.
All the players that attack from high ground get the advantage (while others don´t).

Anyway, my point was that you originally stated that the battle bonus was individual, which was not the case
 
Mythicos
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue 16 Jun 2020, 03:46

Re: A pattern in criticism?

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 20:13



If you check advantages table on page 102, it states that everyone that is attacking a character in those condition get the advantage. So in a sense it is explicitely spelled out

I did read it, and twice since you quoted it.

The absence of "All" and the presence of the word "may" is kinda key here.

It's written...:


[...] Player-Heroes may enjoy from the adverse effects of a single complication at a time [...]

... and not:


[...] All Player-Heroes will enjoy from the adverse effects of a single complication at a time [...]
(emphasis mine)

So... agree to disagree on the interpretation?
It depends from the condition.
If the enemy is blinded most likely all the player heroes will get the advantage.
All the players that attack from high ground get the advantage (while others don´t).

Anyway, my point was that you originally stated that the battle bonus was individual, which was not the case

We clearly argued over each other's head, because I meant the bonus dice, not the possibility of getting a bonus dice from an advantage, are individual.

Sorry if I wasn't clearer.
 
Dorjcal
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun 11 Jul 2021, 10:22

Re: A pattern in criticism?

Mon 26 Jul 2021, 21:04




I did read it, and twice since you quoted it.

The absence of "All" and the presence of the word "may" is kinda key here.

It's written...:





... and not:




(emphasis mine)

So... agree to disagree on the interpretation?
It depends from the condition.
If the enemy is blinded most likely all the player heroes will get the advantage.
All the players that attack from high ground get the advantage (while others don´t).

Anyway, my point was that you originally stated that the battle bonus was individual, which was not the case

We clearly argued over each other's head, because I meant the bonus dice, not the possibility of getting a bonus dice from an advantage, are individual.

Sorry if I wasn't clearer.
I see!
 
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aramis
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Re: A pattern in criticism?

Tue 27 Jul 2021, 07:49

It's called Cooperation, rather than Help, but the two are near synonyms. Spending prep dice as help is also a help mechanic... the lack of prep rolls really is a huge change, especially for combat.

You can always roll battle before an encounter, which gives you 1 or 2 die extra. You can also do it as a secondary action any time during combat.
So, it is actually easier to get bonus in 2E



Two things:

1) Those bonus dice are yours only; you can't give them to another player like you could in 1st edition;
2) The "Roll battle" to gain bonus dice ("Complications and Advantages" section, pp. 101-102) might be as a secondary action, depending on the current situation (i.e. LM's judgement). It also might use a main action, thus stopping you from attacking in the same round.
I missed that #2, but it's not the same as prep dice, and my 1E experienced players all feel like song is too nerfed, too. (it was great when they fould a book of the official tunes to songs from tolkien; when one of those was sung by players, I dropped the TN by the number of players.

In re multiple rolls instead of reduced difficulty - that actually does not make it easier unless it's a no harm per failure other than time. And yes, 1E prolonging could be used to do something taking longer than usual by one, without requiring another actually help, again, that reduction came at much increased risk of a sauron+failure (1E that was essentially a botch)

Prolonged actions were a simple but powerful tool in 1E; the lack of the reduction in difficulty for help feels counter to the value of Felloship and Camaraderie in the works of Prof. Tolkien. It was one of the things that really stood out... everyone singing to impress The Lord of Eagles?How many? Ok, roll song at TN-X and need Y successes - but each failure counting against the Notoriously short tolerance of Gwahir and his lot for any of the ground-folk save Ystari... and downright hate for goblinkinds...
I may have overused the tolerance rules, but it made failures matter a lot. I also haven't found any intolerance reference in 2E. It was a hassle, but a good one.

2E, it's been massively reduced, and due to basics of dice math, and TN's that are often near or above the average roll for skills, it's no benefit to need X of X rolls (which is the default for prolonged); even X of X+1 isn't good. In fact, it's worse on average to extend it unless your average roll is well above the TN, but then you don't need to anyway.
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