MDuckworth83
Topic Author
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue 06 Jul 2021, 03:32

Playtesting is winning me over to Hope 2.0

Thu 22 Jul 2021, 21:25

I've been following the Hope debates closely and been on both sides. I initially was all for Hope 2.0 because of my natural aversion to automatic success mechanics. However, I can completely see Hope 1.0's POV on this.... they loved having a narrative driving mechanic that could say "screw you" to an unlucky dice roll during a crucial heroic narrative moment where a random failure just feels wrong.

Now that I've done some playtesting at the table, I'm coming around again to Hope 2.0 again. I now realize that it's primary role is to invoke a distinctive feature for inspiration. You generally aren't going to "waste" hope on a roll that isn't inspired (but the game gives you that option just to be flexible, which is a benefit). One of the bigger critiques was that hope will frequently be wasted (either it would have succeeded anyway, or won't be enough to push the roll over in a lot of cases). That is more true with +1d, but when you are primarily using it for +2d, suddenly that is a bigger splash. An average increase of +6 (not to mentioned increase chance of bonus successes!!) means that it's on average powerful enough to mostly succeed on an otherwise difficult roll that is critical, or make an average roll almost guaranteed in a "narrative" moment (while still allowing slim chance of failure). In other words, it's not that far away from what 1st ed hope was doing, it's just now tied to a distinctive feature and inspiration. I think this is even "more" thematic, as well as making trait management easier. I'm more inclined to allow a player to "stretch the definition" a bit to apply a distinctive feature to a roll when I know it will cost him a hope point and thus not done lightly. IMO, that makes that subjective trait mechanic that was my bugbear with some players in 1st edition much easier to manage and tame.

Basically, I'm finding that a lot of the mechanics I was dubious about at first are much better than I thought when I actually see them in action in the context of the rest of the system. I don't think I've ever had a game where I've had to change my mind from my initial take as much.
 
baldrick0712
Posts: 672
Joined: Fri 28 May 2021, 12:29

Re: Playtesting is winning me over to Hope 2.0

Fri 23 Jul 2021, 04:34

Fair points but even on Inspired rolls there are going to be times when your Hope bonus dice add a measly 2. How would you narrate that result to your now glum-faced player? It almost has a pythonesque quality to it (music rising dramatically to a crescendo and then... splat). At the end of the day it's probably not going to be a big deal. Players will have to get used to Hope spends sometimes not paying off. But it would be interesting to see how people interpret failed Hope spends.
 
rennarda
Posts: 94
Joined: Fri 20 Dec 2019, 15:28

Re: Playtesting is winning me over to Hope 2.0

Fri 23 Jul 2021, 10:07

Perhaps a bit of wording in the rules might have alleviated all the angst - "players should use hope for inspired rolls, but are free to spend it on non-inspired rolls if they so choose"... ?
 
Dorjcal
Posts: 81
Joined: Sun 11 Jul 2021, 10:22

Re: Playtesting is winning me over to Hope 2.0

Fri 23 Jul 2021, 10:27

Fair points but even on Inspired rolls there are going to be times when your Hope bonus dice add a measly 2. How would you narrate that result to your now glum-faced player? It almost has a pythonesque quality to it (music rising dramatically to a crescendo and then... splat). At the end of the day it's probably not going to be a big deal. Players will have to get used to Hope spends sometimes not paying off. But it would be interesting to see how people interpret failed Hope spends.
Hope represents the effort of you character to try to push himself to achieve over his/her own boundaries. This might be successful to some degrees.
 
Themadviolinist
Posts: 67
Joined: Sat 10 Jul 2021, 16:01

Re: Playtesting is winning me over to Hope 2.0

Fri 23 Jul 2021, 15:51

I'm thinking that hope is going to be most important when the characters are weary, at which point hope will have either an outsized effect, (dice 4-6) or none (dice 1-3). That's going to be narratively somewhat high stakes, as the characters are either pushing well beyon their limits, (Sam in Mordor) or succumbing to the inevitable failure of mere action to defeat evil (Frodo at the Cracks of doom.)
 
MDuckworth83
Topic Author
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue 06 Jul 2021, 03:32

Re: Playtesting is winning me over to Hope 2.0

Fri 23 Jul 2021, 17:49

Fair points but even on Inspired rolls there are going to be times when your Hope bonus dice add a measly 2. How would you narrate that result to your now glum-faced player? It almost has a pythonesque quality to it (music rising dramatically to a crescendo and then... splat). At the end of the day it's probably not going to be a big deal. Players will have to get used to Hope spends sometimes not paying off. But it would be interesting to see how people interpret failed Hope spends.
I think this could be dramatic too. Sometimes evil wins. I like to think about the Silmarillion and the first age. Despite the power, glory, strength, and hope! of the Noldor and the Edain, they were just completely unable to defeat or even stop Morgoth, and would have been defeated/enslaved completely if not for literal divine intervention. You could take that moment of hope failing and turn it into a narrative pivot point that has an impact in later adventures, etc.... (i.e., if the character failed a hope roll and died, he is now a martyr who inspires future heroes, etc.) This can actually be very dramatic if done right.
 
gyrovague
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: Playtesting is winning me over to Hope 2.0

Fri 23 Jul 2021, 17:51

I think this could be dramatic too. Sometimes evil wins. I like to think about the Silmarillion and the first age. Despite the power, glory, strength, and hope! of the Noldor and the Edain, they were just completely unable to defeat or even stop Morgoth, and would have been defeated/enslaved completely if not for literal divine intervention. You could take that moment of hope failing and turn it into a narrative pivot point that has an impact in later adventures, etc.... (i.e., if the character failed a hope roll and died, he is now a martyr who inspires future heroes, etc.) This can actually be very dramatic if done right.
Fingolfin spent a point of Hope every time Morgoth swung his hammer. Alas, he eventually ran out of points.
 
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Michele
Posts: 104
Joined: Tue 29 Jun 2021, 16:58

Re: Playtesting is winning me over to Hope 2.0

Fri 23 Jul 2021, 18:35

Fingolfin spent a point of Hope every time Morgoth swung his hammer. Alas, he eventually ran out of points.

Well, if I were fighting Morgoth, I would spend Hope on each and every freakin' roll of that fight without any second thoughts!
It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till.
 
Davi
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon 15 Feb 2021, 04:16

Re: Playtesting is winning me over to Hope 2.0

Fri 23 Jul 2021, 18:48

I think this could be dramatic too. Sometimes evil wins. I like to think about the Silmarillion and the first age. Despite the power, glory, strength, and hope! of the Noldor and the Edain, they were just completely unable to defeat or even stop Morgoth, and would have been defeated/enslaved completely if not for literal divine intervention. You could take that moment of hope failing and turn it into a narrative pivot point that has an impact in later adventures, etc.... (i.e., if the character failed a hope roll and died, he is now a martyr who inspires future heroes, etc.) This can actually be very dramatic if done right.
Fingolfin spent a point of Hope every time Morgoth swung his hammer. Alas, he eventually ran out of points.
Maybe he did not ran out of hope, he just failed and a higher margin than the required margin to be successful on a roll, alas many calculation were done until his point of hope left were useless to him
 
gyrovague
Posts: 591
Joined: Tue 28 Apr 2020, 16:52

Re: Playtesting is winning me over to Hope 2.0

Fri 23 Jul 2021, 19:09

I think this could be dramatic too. Sometimes evil wins. I like to think about the Silmarillion and the first age. Despite the power, glory, strength, and hope! of the Noldor and the Edain, they were just completely unable to defeat or even stop Morgoth, and would have been defeated/enslaved completely if not for literal divine intervention. You could take that moment of hope failing and turn it into a narrative pivot point that has an impact in later adventures, etc.... (i.e., if the character failed a hope roll and died, he is now a martyr who inspires future heroes, etc.) This can actually be very dramatic if done right.
Fingolfin spent a point of Hope every time Morgoth swung his hammer. Alas, he eventually ran out of points.
Maybe he did not ran out of hope, he just failed and a higher margin than the required margin to be successful on a roll, alas many calculation were done until his point of hope left were useless to him

Or maybe he forgot there was a Hope mechanic, because it never seemed to make much difference in the past.

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