Otaku-sempai
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Re: Knowledge of Dunedin lineage?

Tue 03 Aug 2021, 15:59

Hmmm. I"m not sure about the ancestry of the Lossoth (the Snowmen of Forochel). They might represent a strain of the Northmen; for my own purposes I have imagined them as being the ancestors of the Sami people of Scandinavia.

The folklore of the Bree-landers attempts to link the founding of Bree with the Northmen who were close kindred to the Edain. However, Middle-earth historians expressed serious doubts in regard to these accounts, believing the origins of Bree are more recent than local legends would suggest.
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Themadviolinist
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Re: Knowledge of Dunedin lineage?

Tue 03 Aug 2021, 17:05

I'm not sure the Beornings are necessarily related to the DAlemen or Rohirim. WE don't really know how wide spread skin changing was, but if it exists in some form beyond Beorn, that would indicate a different origin of some sort.
 
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Michele
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Re: Knowledge of Dunedin lineage?

Tue 03 Aug 2021, 17:43

I'm not sure the Beornings are necessarily related to the DAlemen or Rohirim. WE don't really know how wide spread skin changing was, but if it exists in some form beyond Beorn, that would indicate a different origin of some sort.

Beornings, Dalemen and Rohirrim are definitely related. In LotR, Aragorn says about the Rohirrim that "It was in forgotten years long ago that Eorl the Young brought them out of the North, and their kinship is rather with the Bardings of Dale, and with the Beornings of the Wood, among whom may still be seen many men tall and fair, as are the Riders of Rohan.

In fact, they are all Northmen in ancestry, a term encompassing all the men that lived in the north of Rhovanion. So they may be not closely related, but they are definitely of the same kin.
It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till.
 
MDuckworth83
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Re: Knowledge of Dunedin lineage?

Tue 03 Aug 2021, 17:43

Hmmm. I"m not sure about the ancestry of the Lossoth (the Snowmen of Forochel). They might represent a strain of the Northmen; for my own purposes I have imagined them as being the ancestors of the Sami people of Scandinavia.

The folklore of the Bree-landers attempts to link the founding of Bree with the Northmen who were close kindred to the Edain. However, Middle-earth historians expressed serious doubts in regard to these accounts, believing the origins of Bree are more recent than local legends would suggest.
To be fair, I'm not sure that the Sami of Scandinavia are very closely related to the populations of Norway, Denmark, and Sweden. The "Norse" populations come from Germanic roots, while the Sami (Like the Finns and Hungarians) come from Finno-Ugaritic roots if I recall correctly. This implies a vastly different language and origin between the two peoples' that live in close proximity in Scandinavia.

Just to point out how significant this is.... Germanic is part of a larger family that includes Latin, Greek, Celtic, Slavic, and Germanic (as well as Persian Faris and Indian Hindi)... know as Indo-European languages. So the Sami and Finns and Hungarians represent a branching off that goes back a VERY LONG WAY (well before 4,000 B.C. at the latest)
 
gyrovague
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Re: Knowledge of Dunedin lineage?

Tue 03 Aug 2021, 18:01

To be fair, I'm not sure that the Sami of Scandinavia are very closely related to the populations of Norway, Denmark, and Sweden. The "Norse" populations come from Germanic roots, while the Sami (Like the Finns and Hungarians) come from Finno-Ugaritic roots if I recall correctly. This implies a vastly different language and origin between the two peoples' that live in close proximity in Scandinavia.

Just to point out how significant this is.... Germanic is part of a larger family that includes Latin, Greek, Celtic, Slavic, and Germanic (as well as Persian Faris and Indian Hindi)... know as Indo-European languages. So the Sami and Finns and Hungarians represent a branching off that goes back a VERY LONG WAY (well before 4,000 B.C. at the latest)
I suspect he would agree with you. I believe there is an implicit "but" in between "they might represent a strain of northmen" and "for my own purposes...".

I don't always agree with OS's interpretations, but he knows his facts!
 
Otaku-sempai
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Re: Knowledge of Dunedin lineage?

Tue 03 Aug 2021, 23:30

Well, the Inuit people never inhabited north-eastern Europe. The nearest they came was migrating to Greenland from Canada. Yupik (the people from whom the Inuit are descended) migrations tended to move east and south from Siberia, though some back-migration might have taken place. So the Sami people are better candidates for the descendants of the Lossoth. That said, the Forodwaith peoples might have separated from tribes of fair-haired Northmen of Middle-earth very early and so developed their own distinctive language and culture. The Lossoth aren't known for domesticating caribou, but maybe the subject just never came up.

Of course, if the Lossoth are introduced in a future supplement and they are very different in appearance from the Sami people then my speculations are moot.
Last edited by Otaku-sempai on Wed 04 Aug 2021, 05:35, edited 3 times in total.
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Themadviolinist
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Re: Knowledge of Dunedin lineage?

Wed 04 Aug 2021, 02:14

Re: #12, yes, your Aragorn quote trumps my vague feeling. I recline corrected. *smile*
 
Tolwen
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Re: Knowledge of Dunedin lineage?

Wed 04 Aug 2021, 17:51

IIRC it seems most Shire Folk and Breelanders don't know the connection between the Rangers and the Kings of Old.
Appendix A of the LotR makes it IMO quite clear that the Dúnedain deliberately went into hiding in order to survive by existing incognito and re-emerge later (i.e. in Aragorn's time). IMO for this to work, they have to make sure that their continued existence in the North remains a secret. To facilitate this, they need a good cover story that makes their downfall 1,000 years ago absolutely believable - and they had to thoroughly erase any remaining traces (i.e. books, documents etc.) that link or suggest to their hidden existence. Wrapping it up, knowledge of the Ranger's true identity should be IMHO something extremely hard to uncover and then the individual would need the trust of the Dúnedain that this secret is safe with him/her (i.e. not writing or talking about it). IMO it surely is nothing that can be obtained by a class (e.g. Scholar) and a simple dice roll or FP activity.
The hidden existence of the Northern Dúnedan is IMO among the most top-secret lores in Eriador and should be treated as such in a game.

The upcoming Issue of OM may have an article dealing with this subject BTW ;)

Best
Thomas
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MDuckworth83
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Re: Knowledge of Dunedin lineage?

Thu 05 Aug 2021, 23:10

IIRC it seems most Shire Folk and Breelanders don't know the connection between the Rangers and the Kings of Old.
Appendix A of the LotR makes it IMO quite clear that the Dúnedain deliberately went into hiding in order to survive by existing incognito and re-emerge later (i.e. in Aragorn's time). IMO for this to work, they have to make sure that their continued existence in the North remains a secret. To facilitate this, they need a good cover story that makes their downfall 1,000 years ago absolutely believable - and they had to thoroughly erase any remaining traces (i.e. books, documents etc.) that link or suggest to their hidden existence. Wrapping it up, knowledge of the Ranger's true identity should be IMHO something extremely hard to uncover and then the individual would need the trust of the Dúnedain that this secret is safe with him/her (i.e. not writing or talking about it). IMO it surely is nothing that can be obtained by a class (e.g. Scholar) and a simple dice roll or FP activity.
The hidden existence of the Northern Dúnedan is IMO among the most top-secret lores in Eriador and should be treated as such in a game.

The upcoming Issue of OM may have an article dealing with this subject BTW ;)

Best
Thomas
Well…unless the fellowship takes Gilraen as patron!
 
Tolwen
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Re: Knowledge of Dunedin lineage?

Thu 05 Aug 2021, 23:46

Well…unless the fellowship takes Gilraen as patron!
That would be covered what I meant with an "individual needing the trust of the Dúnedain that they would not be advertising their newfound knowledge" (to that effect). What I tried to point out is the general situation - the case you are bringing forth are game mechanics. Of course these two have to match at some point, but still it'd need some good explanation why someone like Gilraen would be willing to share the secret of the Dúnedain's existrence with strangers/outsiders (beyond a game mechanical answer), And if she does, it would IMO imply that the Heroes are expected to protect this secret with their lives.

Best
Thomas
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